Global Warming?

[Rob-D]

You keep saying that, but do no explain why. I do not buy that scientist/engineers cannot quantify man's by-products?


No numbers means not objective. If Man made influences are as significant as some claim, why are they so hard to quantify. Could it be that the "noise" (non man caused factors) is so great that the "signal" (man caused factors) cannot be measured? How is it the we can "know" CO2 is a green house gas and rank it compared to other green house gases and yet cannot quantify the actual amount of green house effect?
Having followed the "debate" since the 80's. IIRC a number of issues were deemed unable to quantify have been at least partially quantified.

Lots of unknowns. Do you know how much heat an industrialized nation is putting into the atmosphere? Every industrialized nation since the onset of the IR? How about you, do you know how much you are changing the planet? How about nuclear blasts? Sure we can make guesses, form an hypothesis and that's what we do. But how do we know if the planet is heating or cooling on its own to add or subtract the effect of man's involvement? The industrial revolution is only a few hundred years old, we need more time to build our theory but that doesn't mean we aren't formulating what we see objectively.

What science does is observe facts and form an hypothesis about those facts, as new facts come in the hypothesis becomes more refined. When our hypothesis holds up for many conditions we call it a theory: The Theory of Gravity, for example.

No numbers mean no objective? Not true, we can use logic to establish an objective assessment:

Objects fall down not up, gravity must be pulling them toward the earth and not repelling them away from the earth.

That's an objective assessment not a subjective one without numbers.

Rob

 

[mostly_gas]

How is it the we can "know" CO2 is a green house gas and rank it compared to other green house gases and yet cannot quantify the actual amount of green house effect?

 

[Rob-D]

How is it the we can "know" CO2 is a green house gas and rank it compared to other green house gases and yet cannot quantify the actual amount of green house effect?

Again, we can form an hypothesis from our observations but there are many variables.
We can know from observation that one gas has greater effect in a controlled environment than another but quantifying that degree without a control condition is not a simple task.

Put a drop of water in a flask of water both temperatures known. We can calculate the final temperature and know the effects of our drop of water.(This is a controlled condition)

Now place a drop of water of known temperature in a flask that is being heated or cooled by an unknown amount. Determining the change is not possible.(This is not a controlled condition)

Rob

 

[mostly_gas]

What does that have to do with the question?

 

[crash325]

Than we must be socialists! We're the second worst polluter in the world.

Two things that cause pollution: industry and human consumption. Developing nations use 1 watt a day per person, we use megawatts a day. We use 25% of the world's energy, who do you think creates more pollution us or a country with little or no electric from coal plants?

I'm not a socialists, I don't believe in a fully socialistic system BUT I do believe in socialistic programs within a democracy. As I said, it's not a black or white issue.... except to those individuals who don't understand how systems work. Those individuals are very afraid of what they don't understand or are ill informed about.
Those of use with fewer children pay more tax than those of us with more children, this is a form of socialism. We are paying people to have more children in an over populated world. Does that make this a socialistic country?

Read some history. Political ideologies fail because of man's corruption, the way this republic is now failing. The ideology of the republic orchestrated by great men like Jefferson and Franklin is being compromised by human greed... we all suffer when that happens.

Again, Franklin's poignant words: "It's a republic, madam, if you can keep it!"

I think you have a very narrow perspective of the world, parroting a right wing philosophy is as myopic as parroting a left wing philosophy. Go read different views like Howard Zinn's, "A People's History of the United States" find out why the Roman Empire failed, go read Gibbon.

Here's the question I ask all those people who narrowly focus on ranting radio hosts: What have you gained from listening to them?
I'm the one with free energy who knows about renewables and technology, not you. I'm the one polluting less and in a much better position if the power grid fails. So maybe if you started thinking about what is actually going on in the world instead of listening to people who want to give you someone to blame, which doesn't you absolutely no good, you might actually have a better life. But people always want to blame those who think differently than they do because that means the onus of their inability to cope with a changing world doesn't fall on them.
You want to blame Al Gore, tell me exactly what good that does you?
That's rhetorical, it does no good whatsoever!

Am I smarter than you? If intelligence is the ability to constructively resolve one's problems than who is smarter, you pay for electricity and I maximize the benefits of the system we both live in. You blame Al Gore and I don't concern myself with him. If tomorrow the power grid fails you get to stick a wet thumb in your ear while I go about life as usual. You know nothing about the technology that makes life better while I utilize it to its maximum. So you tell me who's smarter.


Rob

Not name calling - although that is your practice, you start it then whine when it comes back to haunt you,

You are Phony & Liar. If you were as great as you think you are, you would not be wasting your time here.

Now mister Know It All, Is global warming worse than global cooling. Come on answer the question. Just like you Demand of everyone else.

You do more assuming than most anyone I ever met.
Your ASSUMPTIONS
I listen to talk radio - WRONG
I listen to Glen Beck - WRONG
I'm not educated - WRONG
I tell you I moved houses - you call them mobile homes - WRONG - and have yet to take back your DA statements. Or address how much greener that is than your wind mill.
My family and I have been using used lumber since long before you were born. But your solar panels are saving so much more than we ever will.
I drive a 1997 truck that now has just over 90,000 miles. You have a great little gas saver with almost twice as many miles, but you are taking care of the planet saving our using less fuel than I do. Hold on just a second, It's 1/2 the age of my truck. Bet it took a lot of energy to build that Fine Skateboard. Lets look at Ton Miles. You have yourself a nice little trailer if needed. That little baby will tow up to 2,700 LBS. You either drive real slow creating a hazard or that thing is eating up that Subbie. OOPPPSS Now I'm Assuming. I will still be driving my truck when your Subbie is being crushed up as scrap metal, if you drive as much as you say.

Can you haul a tractor with backhoe and other items. I not only haul my equipment to places where its needed, I also picked up a tractor for a friend with a round trip of almost 500 miles.

Another Answer - Why are you using mercury filled bulbs made in China with all the Hot Air you have.

A good place for you would be France, they need some real Smart people and have just elected a Socialist president. With luck we will get rid of our Socialist president.

As I have said before. If anyone does not recycle or do green things outside of your very narrow view, they just aren't doing it right.

 

[Rob-D]

Not name calling - although that is your practice, you start it then whine when it comes back to haunt you,

You are Phony & Liar. If you were as great as you think you are, you would not be wasting your time here.

Now mister Know It All, Is global warming worse than global cooling. Come on answer the question. Just like you Demand of everyone else.

You do more assuming than most anyone I ever met.
Your ASSUMPTIONS
I listen to talk radio - WRONG
I listen to Glen Beck - WRONG
I'm not educated - WRONG
I tell you I moved houses - you call them mobile homes - WRONG - and have yet to take back your DA statements. Or address how much greener that is than your wind mill.
My family and I have been using used lumber since long before you were born. But your solar panels are saving so much more than we ever will.
I drive a 1997 truck that now has just over 90,000 miles. You have a great little gas saver with almost twice as many miles, but you are taking care of the planet saving our using less fuel than I do. Hold on just a second, It's 1/2 the age of my truck. Bet it took a lot of energy to build that Fine Skateboard. Lets look at Ton Miles. You have yourself a nice little trailer if needed. That little baby will tow up to 2,700 LBS. You either drive real slow creating a hazard or that thing is eating up that Subbie. OOPPPSS Now I'm Assuming. I will still be driving my truck when your Subbie is being crushed up as scrap metal, if you drive as much as you say.

Can you haul a tractor with backhoe and other items. I not only haul my equipment to places where its needed, I also picked up a tractor for a friend with a round trip of almost 500 miles.

Another Answer - Why are you using mercury filled bulbs made in China with all the Hot Air you have.

A good place for you would be France, they need some real Smart people and have just elected a Socialist president. With luck we will get rid of our Socialist president.

As I have said before. If anyone does not recycle or do green things outside of your very narrow view, they just aren't doing it right.

I agree completely 100% (or more)!

 

[Rob-D]

What does that have to do with the question?

As I said, we can isolate a gas, measure it with respect to other gasses in a lab and evaluate the differences. We can't do that outside a controlled environment. The planet is not a controlled environment.

Rob

 

[rsewill]

Yeah, oil and gas are incredible sources of energy. Clean abundant, cheap, and USA has enough for 2000+ years.

HS

HS

The sun is our best source of energy. Clean, cheap, and the world has millions and millions of years of it.

 

[Rob-D]

The sun is our best source of energy. Clean, cheap, and the world has millions and millions of years of it.

The closest the man gets to renewable is his car registration.

Rob

 

[Egon]

Did someone mention a Growing Earth??

Here's the answer!:thumbsup:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ]Conspiracy of Science - Earth is in fact growing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Cat_Driver]

The sun is our best source of energy. Clean, cheap, and the world has millions and millions of years of it.

YA and as long as the Government keeps funding it, we can always tout how cheap it is.

How about the Government just giving us the BILLIONS they gave the solar industry and we could buy the fuel of out choice CHEAP.

 

[Egon]

the answer to one third of the world's electricity needs will be found blowing in the wind."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t4g_1VoGw4]Peter Paul & Mary - Blowin in the wind - YouTube[/ame]

Found another answer!:thumbsup:

 

[Cat_Driver]

OK, you get the same questions as Crash.

Who's smarter me who doesn't pay for electricity and uses technology to it fullest or you who doesn't know anything about the technology that makes life easier while paying for electricity?


Rob

Who's Smarter? NOT YOU.....

So, letç—´ figure out what that would take. Because if itç—´ cost efficient, I will do it right now. Luckily for me thereç—´ an organization that has done all the work for me and created a calculator using the latest in technology and current industry costs. Great.

Right now I use an average of 37 kwh per day. That痴 slightly above average in the US (don稚 ask me how my 1800 sq/ft home does that). Now to get half of that, now remember I知 using this calculator, I need about a 4.1 kW array. So how much does that cost? Luckily they have a calculator for that too.
Itç—´ Totally Cost-Effective think about how much money they'll save on storage!

So you're an investment banker huh?

So, the grand total is $32,800 to get rid of half my electric bill. But don稚 worry, there are tax breaks for this, the federal government will give me almost 10,000 dollars so it ends up being 22,960.00 .

Great, so now if I spend $22,960 to save $35 dollars a month I will recoupe my investment in about 60 years. That doesn稚 include stuff breaking, or what happens if we get less than the optimal amount of sun. In reality it痴 probably twice as much....oh and there's that silly thing of REPLACING panels ( Let's leave all those facts out for now - SHALL WE ) Because in 60 year, I would need to spend $22,960, every 20 years or over 60K. .......Ooopsie looks like solar is MORE MONEY than being ON THE GRID.

Sorry solar, until the cost is low enough that the investment can be recouped in a year, maybe two, youæ±*e just not worth it.

Actually, I値l go one step further and say that the government should stop paying people to throw their money away on a technology that isn稚 ready. I知 all for more efficient panels and more research but right now it痴 just burning money on a technology which probably is way worse for the environment to make than just burning the coal for the electricity.

Prove me wrong and I will love you. Until then, sorry solar, you suck.

OH and your welcome for spending...eerrrr I mean WASTING my tax dollars on your house.

 

[Loren49]

quote Cat_Driver: "Sorry solar, until the cost is low enough that the investment can be recouped in a year, maybe two, you're just not worth it."

Any examples of commercial or residential systems that produce electricity with a payback of 2 years or less. All electric generation systems have hidden and government subsidized costs and nothing has a payback in that range. Have you ever considered the future costs of nearly all the spent nuclear fuel in the US that is mostly still in temporary storage on site. (Gotta figure for the next few hundred years.) How about the costs of air and water pollution from burning coal?
My solar panels for which I paid full price have been producing for about 15 years and should be good for another 15 or more. Can't see how this threatens anyone else or takes their money. Also I have a few thousand in them and they produce about 3/4 of my power.
I predict that there are more tax dollars spent to subsidize the power guzzlers than those how use much less of the resources.

Loren

 

[Redneck in training]

YA and as long as the Government keeps funding it, we can always tout how cheap it is.

How about the Government just giving us the BILLIONS they gave the solar industry and we could buy the fuel of out choice CHEAP.

Do the math first. I don't know how much money was given to support solar energy in the USA so I will just pick some extreme number like 10 billion. USA population is about 311,5 million. Now divide 10,000,000,000 by 311,500.000=32,1
That is about 128 dollars/average US family. The solar industry probably got only 1% of such sum. You will not go too far.

If you buy solar system today it is in fact subsidized by China where bulk of the solar panels are made and dumped on the world market.
Now it is time to buy solar.
Example:
We pay $4200/year for electricity. 18kW solar system installed DIY at cost 32000 will more than cover our consumption. So it will take about 8 years to pay for itself even without government subsidy. I think to go solar is no brainer.

http://www.dmsolar.com/8grwi24sopap.html

 

[tallyho8]

Blame it on the dinosaurs. Pardon me! Gassy dinosaurs helped warm Earth | NOLA.com

 

[charlz]

If, as the now termed 'climate change' crowd tells us, a side effect of global warming can be 'a period of global cooling'. So are they going to also tell use that shrinking amounts of sea ice can cause more sea ice? Bearing Sea had record-breaking amounts of sea ice this past winter:

Bering Sea Sees Surprising Record Ice Cover - Yahoo! News

 

[crash325]

quote Cat_Driver: "Sorry solar, until the cost is low enough that the investment can be recouped in a year, maybe two, you're just not worth it."

Any examples of commercial or residential systems that produce electricity with a payback of 2 years or less. All electric generation systems have hidden and government subsidized costs and nothing has a payback in that range. Have you ever considered the future costs of nearly all the spent nuclear fuel in the US that is mostly still in temporary storage on site. (Gotta figure for the next few hundred years.) How about the costs of air and water pollution from burning coal? Modern and Up graded coal plants add almost no air or water pollution. Water is reused except for that lost as steam.
My solar panels for which I paid full price have been producing for about 15 years and should be good for another 15 or more. Can't see how this threatens anyone else or takes their money. Also I have a few thousand in them and they produce about 3/4 of my power.
I predict that there are more tax dollars spent to subsidize the power guzzlers than those how use much less of the resources. Not clear what you consider Power Guzzlers. If you are talking about Fossil fueled power plants, your wrong. They are taxed and regulated to death.

Loren

This sounds like pure BS. I wonder if you even Believe it. 15 years ago solar panels were not very efficient. Life span was calculated at UP TO 20 years and very few lasted even 10 years.

"Do the math first. I don't know how much money was given to support solar energy in the USA so I will just pick some extreme number like 10 billion. USA population is about 311,5 million. Now divide 10,000,000,000 by 311,500.000=32,1
That is about 128 dollars/average US family. The solar industry probably got only 1% of such sum. You will not go too far.

If you buy solar system today it is in fact subsidized by China where bulk of the solar panels are made and dumped on the world market.
Now it is time to buy solar.
Example:
We pay $4200/year for electricity. 18kW solar system installed DIY at cost 32000 will more than cover our consumption. So it will take about 8 years to pay for itself even without government subsidy. I think to go solar is no brainer.

Your math is completely wrong (not based on facts) as is to where the $$$ went. Almost all of it went to solar & wind.

Your electric bill is more than 3 times mine. Ever turn a light off??
Why should I pay $128.00 a year for someone Else's electricity???
So it is good that we are sending more $$$ to China???

Just for the record, I am not against wind or solar power. Around 35 years ago I purchased a wind generator. We had too much wind and it tore its self up in a few months.

Wind & Solar, when they are actually able to compete, without Gov. subsides that will be great. 1 Hidden Gov. subsidy is that those selling excess power to the power co's get paid more for it than the power co sells it for.

 

[Rob-D]

Who's Smarter? NOT YOU.....

So, letç—´ figure out what that would take. Because if itç—´ cost efficient, I will do it right now. Luckily for me thereç—´ an organization that has done all the work for me and created a calculator using the latest in technology and current industry costs. Great.

Right now I use an average of 37 kwh per day. That痴 slightly above average in the US (don稚 ask me how my 1800 sq/ft home does that). Now to get half of that, now remember I知 using this calculator, I need about a 4.1 kW array. So how much does that cost? Luckily they have a calculator for that too.
Itç—´ Totally Cost-Effective think about how much money they'll save on storage!

So you're an investment banker huh?

So, the grand total is $32,800 to get rid of half my electric bill. But don稚 worry, there are tax breaks for this, the federal government will give me almost 10,000 dollars so it ends up being 22,960.00 .

Great, so now if I spend $22,960 to save $35 dollars a month I will recoupe my investment in about 60 years. That doesn稚 include stuff breaking, or what happens if we get less than the optimal amount of sun. In reality it痴 probably twice as much....oh and there's that silly thing of REPLACING panels ( Let's leave all those facts out for now - SHALL WE ) Because in 60 year, I would need to spend $22,960, every 20 years or over 60K. .......Ooopsie looks like solar is MORE MONEY than being ON THE GRID.

Sorry solar, until the cost is low enough that the investment can be recouped in a year, maybe two, you*e just not worth it.

Actually, I値l go one step further and say that the government should stop paying people to throw their money away on a technology that isn稚 ready. I知 all for more efficient panels and more research but right now it痴 just burning money on a technology which probably is way worse for the environment to make than just burning the coal for the electricity.

Prove me wrong and I will love you. Until then, sorry solar, you suck.

OH and your welcome for spending...eerrrr I mean WASTING my tax dollars on your house.

You're late here, my intertie system cost me nothing! Actually I made money on it. My coop gave out incentives for PV installations.
I did pay for my off grid system but I put that in myself, it cost about 10k before gov. incentives.

But the big difference is that you're paying $8.00 a watt to have someone else put in your system and I put mine in for less than $3.00 a watt. If you were smart enough to put in your own system you would have spent 4.1 x $3.00 = 12.3k-30% = $8,6100.

The next thing you don't know is where you're using your electricity. What? That's equivalent to pouring money down a drain. How smart is that? I can tell you exactly what appliances in my house use the most KWH a day and exactly where my money is going. So are you an investment banker, or what?

The next thing is that you haven't accounted for rising energy costs.

The next thing is the grid. What will you do if the fragile grid dies tomorrow? At that point yearly pay back is moot.

Got an SUV? A truck? What's the payback on that. I know people with 45k vehicles that can't change a flat. How do you buy a car and not know how to maintain it?

What's my point? How do you live in a world with rising energy costs and not know how diminish their effect on you? How smart is that?

So tell me again who needs to be the investment banker because he doesn't know where his money is going. That wouldn't be me I spent 10k for over 8.4 Kw of PV and don't care if the grid flops on its face tomorrow.

It's called technology, you know how to type on your computer, pay for a car that gives you zero return but you don't know how to take advantage of technology. Back to the guy who buys a car and can't change a flat! I'll bet you know who won the super bowl though, now that's important!

Billions of dollars in incentives we give the oil companies doesn't seem to bother you.

Senate Republicans reject Obama call to end 'big oil' tax breaks - CNN.com

"With record profits and rising production, I'm not worried about the big oil companies," Obama said in the White House Rose Garden. "... I think it's time they got by without more help from taxpayers, who are having a tough enough time paying their bills and filling up their tanks."

To quote you:

"So who's smarter? NOT YOU!"

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

If, as the now termed 'climate change' crowd tells us, a side effect of global warming can be 'a period of global cooling'. So are they going to also tell use that shrinking amounts of sea ice can cause more sea ice? Bearing Sea had record-breaking amounts of sea ice this past winter:

Bering Sea Sees Surprising Record Ice Cover - Yahoo! News

Yes, that's exactly right. CC is the correct term. one aspect of CC is greater swings in both directions.
Rob