gm buying dodge?

[Northland]

And Consumer Reports is full of ***, as usual:

Toyota Tundra is 60% American. Ford & GM full size are 85-86% American. I can't believe how many people are gullable enough to believe these Toyota ads. They act like they're saving our economy from ruins or something. All they're doing is paying US workers lower wages & benefits and taking the profits back to Japan (under lower tax levels than American car companies, of course).

Here's the true facts on American parts content of all the manufacturers:

http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/docs/lfi-domestic-content.pdf

I can't beleive anyone would use The Level Field Institute as a supposedly objective source of factual data. Also, you are referencing data from 2004-it's now 2007. Things have changed in the past three years.

 

[mboulais]

I know that personal attacks are not allowed and I am not trying to make this a personal attack but to be honest you really dont know what the heck you are talking about. I am curious about the 30 dollar an hour job inspecting lug nuts exactly which company and what written proof do you have of that. While on the subject of salary what does a MRI engineer make per year. I am a union official. At the moment I am on a lunch break from a Seminar on Arbitrations. Attendees are Management and labor attorneys, Union officials, and Members of the National Academy of Arbitrations. If you want to talk about people squeezing this country lets talk about the very upper levels of management. What about CEO's that are making tens of millions of dollars in bonuses while the company they are directing is millions of dollars in the hole for that year. Or what about companies like american airlines where the unions took very large pay cuts to help the company out and then found out that all the upper managers had been promised a bonus equal to a years salary if they stayed on. What unions have done in this country is to help working people get a living wage. Look at the industries that do not have unions. How many of them are paying a substandard wage and no benefits.

Actually, he is exactly right about the wage costs at the big three. I used to work in a GM plant. After Cost Of Living Allowances, people picking 1/4 lb foam shapes up and loading them on carts are make $24 + / hr. A tradesman is making $30/hr. The wages go up every year for the UAW through the cost of living allowances, but Salaried wages wer froze the last 4 yrs I was there. I now work in a non-union plant where the wages are lower but still very good (around 3/4 gm wages). Other benifits are comparable. Unions were meant to improve safety as much as wages. With OSHA, government mandated minimum wages, and good employers willing to pay 3 times minimum in industry to retain good help, Unions have outlived their usefulness. The big three can't close a plant without first putting it on the bargaining table at national level negotiations. This is contract year at GM, it should be interesting. Even if they outsource or close a plant to reduce excess capacity, they still have to put the displaced workers in a jobs bank and pay them most of their base wage. We can only blame weak corporaqte negotiators that during the more prosperous times agreed to these union demands and may more expensive and onesided obligations to settle a contract negotiation. GM and other two loose money every day due to senseless agreements with the union that prevent relly bad employees from being fired or even punished. At any time the GM plant I worked at had about 9% of its UAW workforce out on "disability" and another 2% did not show up for work. Little good be done to solve either due to contractual protections.

I don't hate unions, I just don't have any sympathy for them.

 

[workinallthetime]

i wish gm made tractors id have one, lol
i guess i really started something with this post, i dont hink gm will buy dodge but it would be nice if the all 3 would play nice and create a superior product to anything the rising sun can build and price it right. i have a new sierra 1/2 ton with the "max" package on it so i can tow within its limits of 10.5 the rear end is out of a 3/4 ton so i know it will handle the load and the brakes are huge.
somone said something about toyota buying into isuzu well gm owns isuzu and allison
so i dont really see a toyota with a isuzu in it anytime soon

 

[gemini5362]

Actually, he is exactly right about the wage costs at the big three. I used to work in a GM plant. After Cost Of Living Allowances, people picking 1/4 lb foam shapes up and loading them on carts are make $24 + / hr. A tradesman is making $30/hr. The wages go up every year for the UAW through the cost of living allowances, but Salaried wages wer froze the last 4 yrs I was there. I now work in a non-union plant where the wages are lower but still very good (around 3/4 gm wages). Other benifits are comparable. Unions were meant to improve safety as much as wages. With OSHA, government mandated minimum wages, and good employers willing to pay 3 times minimum in industry to retain good help, Unions have outlived their usefulness. The big three can't close a plant without first putting it on the bargaining table at national level negotiations. This is contract year at GM, it should be interesting. Even if they outsource or close a plant to reduce excess capacity, they still have to put the displaced workers in a jobs bank and pay them most of their base wage. We can only blame weak corporaqte negotiators that during the more prosperous times agreed to these union demands and may more expensive and onesided obligations to settle a contract negotiation. GM and other two loose money every day due to senseless agreements with the union that prevent relly bad employees from being fired or even punished. At any time the GM plant I worked at had about 9% of its UAW workforce out on "disability" and another 2% did not show up for work. Little good be done to solve either due to contractual protections.

I don't hate unions, I just don't have any sympathy for them.

I believe that you are falling into a fallacy that I see a lot of. You blame weak corporate negotiators for the problem. Too many people do not realize what the term bargaining means. For every thing that either management or the union realizes they have to give up something. The only time that is not true is when a contract is dictated by mandatory arbitration and an arbitrator tells both sides what the contract is going to be. For the union to get those type of concessions from autmobile management they had to give management something that they really wanted and was willing to pay for. I can tell you I defend people all the time that probably should not be able to get their jobs back. I dont have a choice because of lawsuit issues and public law. I can say this for one thing with out any fear of being wrong. Every time I get an employee their job back or back pay whent they dont deserve it. I win because management failed to follow the rules that THEY make. Every rule that the union has to go by was made by management and then the union agreed to it. So if you want to blame employees that should not be working put the blame squarely where it belongs on the managements shoulders. The union official by law has to represent anyone in the plant where there is a union. They have to do that whether they are a union member or not. Now if you want to get to the number of people that I have saved jobs because a member of management did not like them and started harrasing them I could fill up several pages with that. I can also give a few thousand pages where people got money because they did not work due to managemnt failing to follow the rules. In our contract we have a nice simple clause. To allow people to decide if the want to work overtime or not management has to use people on an overtime desired list for overtime work. If there are not enough people on the list for a particular job then they can go to people not on the list to work. To me that is a very very simple idea. Over 50 per cent of the grievances I do are from that one thing. Management looks at someone and says you are staying overtime. The person is not on the list but the manager does not care he says you are working. Management winds up paying the person that should have worked for every hour that they missed out on. I am sure that while you were at GM you did not see anyone fired that should not have been. I see it on a regular basis management gets mad at someone then looks for excuses to fire them. After we get there job back management is even madder and then it is a constant battle for several years until management gets tired of the game. I am in that boat I got fired for something unbelievable. When I won my case I literally was called into my bosses office to be chewed out and disciplined every day for two years. not just often but every day. I once got a two week suspension with pay because there were memoes that were in a book for us to read. I was on vacation and when I came back I read and initialed two memoes. Evidently there was a third one stuck to one of the other two and when I flipped pages to check It turned with the one I read and i did not see it. I got a two week suspension for that. In the arbitration they showed where one of the guys I had worked with in a three month period had not signed he read 32 different ones. He had never even been talked to. You will never convince me that unions have outlived their usefullness they are needed just to protect the rights of employees from bad management. I am sorry this is such a long post. If you dont want to see a longer one dont even mention the Labor Board to me.

 

[JerryG]

somone said something about toyota buying into isuzu well gm owns isuzu and allison so i dont really see a toyota with a isuzu in it anytime soon

GM sold the shares they owned in Isuzu a while back. Toyota bought part of them.
ISUZU:General Motors and Isuzu dissolve equity tie-up

 

[Northland]

i wish gm made tractors id have one, lol
i guess i really started something with this post, i dont hink gm will buy dodge but it would be nice if the all 3 would play nice and create a superior product to anything the rising sun can build and price it right. i have a new sierra 1/2 ton with the "max" package on it so i can tow within its limits of 10.5 the rear end is out of a 3/4 ton so i know it will handle the load and the brakes are huge.
somone said something about toyota buying into isuzu well gm owns isuzu and allison
so i dont really see a toyota with a isuzu in it anytime soon

that was my post-based on facts.....not opinion, heresay or outdated information - see

Toyota's Isuzu investment gives automaker diesel technology
"It turns out Toyota's acquisition of 5.6 percent of Isuzu last week for $375 million may have been an inexpensive solution to the company's diesel needs. The deal gives Toyota access more than 800 experienced diesel engineers, according to the report. These engineers are the same team that developed GM's Duramax engine range for trucks.

"We think we need to strengthen our diesel capabilities," Toyota's Katsuaki Watanabe says. "We anticipate the growth of diesel engines going forward." Toyota has focused on hybrids in recent years, but demand for clean diesels is also growing, and it appears the automaker now recognizes this reality."

 

[indianaEPH]

I believe that you are falling into a fallacy that I see a lot of. You blame weak corporate negotiators for the problem. Too many people do not realize what the term bargaining means. For every thing that either management or the union realizes they have to give up something. The only time that is not true is when a contract is dictated by mandatory arbitration and an arbitrator tells both sides what the contract is going to be. For the union to get those type of concessions from autmobile management they had to give management something that they really wanted and was willing to pay for. I can tell you I defend people all the time that probably should not be able to get their jobs back. I dont have a choice because of lawsuit issues and public law. I can say this for one thing with out any fear of being wrong. Every time I get an employee their job back or back pay whent they dont deserve it. I win because management failed to follow the rules that THEY make. Every rule that the union has to go by was made by management and then the union agreed to it. So if you want to blame employees that should not be working put the blame squarely where it belongs on the managements shoulders. The union official by law has to represent anyone in the plant where there is a union. They have to do that whether they are a union member or not. Now if you want to get to the number of people that I have saved jobs because a member of management did not like them and started harrasing them I could fill up several pages with that. I can also give a few thousand pages where people got money because they did not work due to managemnt failing to follow the rules. In our contract we have a nice simple clause. To allow people to decide if the want to work overtime or not management has to use people on an overtime desired list for overtime work. If there are not enough people on the list for a particular job then they can go to people not on the list to work. To me that is a very very simple idea. Over 50 per cent of the grievances I do are from that one thing. Management looks at someone and says you are staying overtime. The person is not on the list but the manager does not care he says you are working. Management winds up paying the person that should have worked for every hour that they missed out on. I am sure that while you were at GM you did not see anyone fired that should not have been. I see it on a regular basis management gets mad at someone then looks for excuses to fire them. After we get there job back management is even madder and then it is a constant battle for several years until management gets tired of the game. I am in that boat I got fired for something unbelievable. When I won my case I literally was called into my bosses office to be chewed out and disciplined every day for two years. not just often but every day. I once got a two week suspension with pay because there were memoes that were in a book for us to read. I was on vacation and when I came back I read and initialed two memoes. Evidently there was a third one stuck to one of the other two and when I flipped pages to check It turned with the one I read and i did not see it. I got a two week suspension for that. In the arbitration they showed where one of the guys I had worked with in a three month period had not signed he read 32 different ones. He had never even been talked to. You will never convince me that unions have outlived their usefullness they are needed just to protect the rights of employees from bad management. I am sorry this is such a long post. If you dont want to see a longer one dont even mention the Labor Board to me.

I

Is there any wonder why GM is in such bad shape? GM cannot compeat without first shedding a big part of it's work force. After decades of saying/thinking they could grow their way out of there finacial load it is finally time for the piper to be paid.

I've worked for GM in the past. I'm glad not to be there and I'm very glad to be living in Detriot now.

They will need to either downsize in a hurry or implode.

Ana I think the fault lies with all of the managment.....Both GM corprate managment and Union Management. The corp managment for being short sighted and pushing the problem out to the next crop of managment and the Union for being greedy and willing to put up with incompetence and low/no value workers.

 

[Builder]

I can't beleive anyone would use The Level Field Institute as a supposedly objective source of factual data. Also, you are referencing data from 2004-it's now 2007. Things have changed in the past three years.

What's your source?
Show us the more accurate up to date data that you have???

Well, keep smiling and patting yourself on the back that Toyota full size trucks have more American content than full size GM or Ford trucks. Anytime you want to line-em up, either pulling, racing, dynoing, carrying weight or the amount of American content, I think you'll always be able to find an American built that'll kick any Japanese full size trucks azz from Tokyo to Detroit.

And what has changed so much since '04? Toyota's plant in San Antonio isn't done. Even if it was, all they're doing is importing Japanese engines, transmissions, rears, brakes, electrical sytems, etc. and assembling them in the USA. Does that make you feel really " 'Murrican made?"

 

[workinallthetime]

GM sold the shares they owned in Isuzu a while back. Toyota bought part of them.
ISUZU:General Motors and Isuzu dissolve equity tie-up

hmm i stand corrected !!!!!
they sold that about the same time they sold delphi to i think and i dont know if they still own direct tv or not

i know the isuzu injecotrs stay together way better than the bosh junk.
i guess isuzu now falls into the toyota,honda catagory completly i wonder if gm still owns a piece of suzuki and daewoo?
i think the next 5 years will be interesting with all this competion especially with all the kids trickin out honda civics,lol. they have no idea what a real american v8 feels like especially one with lots of power. but those kids are the future market for the companies and i cant say i like a cobalt better than a honda. i do know that you will never catch me in anything but a gm truck, i have been in to many wrecks and lived to tell about them and i just dont trust the rising sun with my life, my wife, my tractor, my kids, or even my dog. i have seen to many jap trucks wasted in a wreck that another truck might have lived through.
just my 2 cents american

ohh and L39
amen brother

 

[patrick_g]

i do know that you will never catch me in anything but a gm truck, i have been in to many wrecks and lived to tell about them and i just dont trust the rising sun with my life

Wasn't it the GM trucks that burned so many people to death because it was cheaper to litigate than to mount the fuel tanks inside the frame rails?

Pat