GM/Cadillac entering Formula 1

[Renze]

Interesting: Its quite something different than Nascar, that banned OHC engines such as the Ford 427 Cammer in 1967, because they wanted racing engines to resemble the street engines of that era (thereby taking away the incentive for technological development)

In Formula 1, the rules promote that new ideas are tried to win, after which some eventually find their way to consumer vehicles, which is an opposite approach to technology...

Statement on General Motors application to join FIA Formula One World Championship in 2026 | Formula 1®

Formula 1 announced today that it has reached an agreement in principle with General Motors (GM) to support bringing GM/Cadillac as the 11th team to the Formula 1 grid in 2026.

www.formula1.com

 

[IndyIan]

I do like F1 and it is interesting how the technology has trickled down over the years. It does get a bit frustrating when one team dominates for a whole season as the engineers and designers can make a larger difference than the drivers, but then you can look at the teams further down the field and see how they are improving their car.
TBH I should watch Indycar more as the racing is closer, but I always seem to watch F1 and that's all.

It will be interesting with a N.A. manufacturer involved although I imagine almost all of the operations and staff will be somewhere around Silverstone in England. The hybrid/turbo F1 engines are among the most thermally efficient and its probably wise for most major car manufacturers to have some idea how this is done.

 

[Renze]

I do like F1 and it is interesting how the technology has trickled down over the years. It does get a bit frustrating when one team dominates for a whole season as the engineers and designers can make a larger difference than the drivers, but then you can look at the teams further down the field and see how they are improving their car.

Thats why they change the rules so often: when one manufacturer gets too dominant, after 4 or 5 years a new engine configuration becomes mandatory and everyone has a new chance to come out on top.

TBH I should watch Indycar more as the racing is closer, but I always seem to watch F1 and that's all.

Ah, indycar yes... ive played the videogames 30 years ago, but its pretty unknown in Europe. I forgot all about that..

It will be interesting with a N.A. manufacturer involved although I imagine almost all of the operations and staff will be somewhere around Silverstone in England.

Yeah, outsourcing R&D sort of defeats the purpose, as the chance that that knowledge trickles down into the assembly line of the main plant, diminishes...

The hybrid/turbo F1 engines are among the most thermally efficient and its probably wise for most major car manufacturers to have some idea how this is done.

Most manufacturers nowadays offer turbo gasoline engines, although no production vehicle engine revs to 18.000rpm...

 

[Renze]

Oh, and if you want to watch an ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT documentary (better than the "real life" garbage Discovery broadcasts these days)

The Ford-Cosworth 3 liter DFV V8 dominated the scene for years, untill the FIA also allowed 1.5 liter turbocharged engines.

BMW took their 1960s cast iron 1.5 liter four cylinder production engine block, especially those with 60.000km on them, used in street tests so the cast iron was well aged and stress relieved by repeated heating cycles, and rebuild these engines for racing:
They beefed up the rotating assembly and installed aluminium heads, slapped a turbo to it, and in qualification laps with a blocked wastegate, got 1500hp from it. They were absolutely untouchable.

Ford (Cosworth) tried the same trick with their 1.5 liter Ford Kent based production engine, an engine family thats produced since the 1959 Ford Anglia, and it seized up at around 11.000hrs because of block deformation.... So Cosworth had to develop a purpose built V6 too...

 

[zzvyb6]

I've worked with the 4 GM 'Key Partner" teams and 1 F1 team before retirement. Believe me, NASCAR is a LOT more difficult an engineering feat because of the weights, undersized tires, horsepower & aero limits and handling traits. F1 cars have remarkable electronic controls that are operated from the pits for engine, chassis, suspension and aero characteristics. The drivers are now basically just coming along for the ride. Ooo, they can still shift gears ! Their tire reserve rating is HUGE plus the use of different tire sizes front/rear. This makes them heavily understeering which is managed by extremely high front aero loadings (5-6 TONS). Team budgets are over a few billion from manufacturers and sponsors. Whereas NASCAR cup cars use different tires left /right and with the desire for high cornering levels set up for slightly oversteering tendencies. This takes some pretty serious vehicle motion sensing. And it's their LEFT side tires which have the high grip numbers in oval track races. What you should find amusing is how open wheel drivers (F1, F2, F3 and Indycar) do poorly in NASCAR, while a few NASCAR drivers have showcased their skills few times in demonstration drive-offs.

BTW: The major objection from the current F1 teams was the addition of one more team which cuts down the winning's division (which is a LOT of money). Cadillac faces a large prejudicial audience whose loyalty is to Mercedes, Ferrari, and Honda. They absolutely hate Michael Andretti, inc. They view GM as a junk iron supplier. But Pratt & Miller has done a great job with Corvette in other series and I have been involved in the CTS racing operations. So, we shall see.

 

[Renze]

Believe me, NASCAR is a LOT more difficult an engineering feat because of the weights, undersized tires, horsepower & aero limits and handling traits. F1 cars have remarkable electronic controls that are operated from the pits for engine, chassis, suspension and aero characteristics. The drivers are now basically just coming along for the ride. Ooo, they can still shift gears ! Their tire reserve rating is HUGE plus the use of different tire sizes front/rear. This makes them heavily understeering which is managed by extremely high front aero loadings (5-6 TONS).

Sorry, i dont believe you. Engineering a stockcar that takes 900hp from max 5.9 liter at 9000rpm, only makes two identical left hand turns each lap, on banked curves, versus a racecar that takes the same 900hp from 1.5 liter at 18.000+ rpm, and must handle predictably and reliably in left and right hand corners, even chicanes, at speeds between 80 and 350kmh, sometimes on rolling terrain... It just isnt the same.

What you should find amusing is how open wheel drivers (F1, F2, F3 and Indycar) do poorly in NASCAR, while a few NASCAR drivers have showcased their skills few times in demonstration drive-offs.

Last time i checked, there are only two drivers that COMPETED in both Nascar and F1.. And neither were winners in either class.

The only thing that topped F1 was Group B rally, a class abandoned because it was deemed too dangerous. They had 4wd and more power than F1 cars, on dirt roads with spectators on the road.

 

[Fixastuff]

Too fast to race. The best car video ever made.

 

[IndyIan]

Sorry, i dont believe you. Engineering a stockcar that takes 900hp from max 5.9 liter at 9000rpm, only makes two identical left hand turns each lap, on banked curves, versus a racecar that takes the same 900hp from 1.5 liter at 18.000+ rpm, and must handle predictably and reliably in left and right hand corners, even chicanes, at speeds between 80 and 350kmh, sometimes on rolling terrain... It just isnt the same.


Last time i checked, there are only two drivers that COMPETED in both Nascar and F1.. And neither were winners in either class.

The only thing that topped F1 was Group B rally, a class abandoned because it was deemed too dangerous. They had 4wd and more power than F1 cars, on dirt roads with spectators on the road.

I think they run some NASCAR style races in europe, go watch, its not as easy as it looks! While overall, getting around the track by yourself at 90% of race speed is easier in NASCAR, once you have 10-20 competitive cars and drivers, its becomes a contest to see who can find a few hundredths more consistently than the rest, both for car setup and drivers. And with more traffic, no blue flags, its a more of a challenge for a driver to navigate that well too.
In the past when many teams built their own chassis, I bet it would've take even an F1 team a couple years to get consistently near the front of a cup race. I don't know what they are allowed to do now that there is spec chassis, but I imagine there is still lots of setup wizardry that only experience will help with.

 

[Renze]

I think they run some NASCAR style races in europe, go watch, its not as easy as it looks!

DTM (German series) and BTCC (British seties) is quite like Nascar nowadays, all silhouette racecars, not really stockcars, not even a stock engine block, but all teams race the same cars with a different silhouette on top. Cheaper for the teams, but the series arent as popular as they once were, when true stock cars were raced.

Current 2024 DTM engines are 2 liter turbo fours at around 600hp, restricted to 9000rpm. They weigh around 1000kg.

I think in the 80s it was really stock car racing, with a stock unibody under the Super Touring regulations.

Super Touring - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And as you can see in the video with cars cornering on two wheels, stockcar racing is different in Europe: there are no banked corners to keep you on the track, you just have to pray for road contact....

 

[RobertC]

Renze, I believe you need to check again. From memory, Dan Gurney, Mario Andretti, and Juan Pablo Montoya have all competed and won Nascar and F1 races.

 

[JasperFrank]

I'm very skeptical that GM's entry into F1 will give any technical advances to their production vehicles. Maybe in Formula E?

 

[Renze]

Renze, I believe you need to check again. From memory, Dan Gurney, Mario Andretti, and Juan Pablo Montoya have all competed and won Nascar and F1 races.

Gurney and Andretti i knew. Montoya wasnt good enough in F1, disappeared from the scene, i didnt know he went Nascar.

Gurney won four F1 races between 1959 and 1970 but never a world title.

Andretti started in Nascar, winning one race. He then advanced to F1 where he won the 1978 championship.

Montoya won 7 F1 races, never a championship. When McLaren didnt extend his contract because he didnt deliver, he went to Nascar.

 

[Renze]

I'm very skeptical that GM's entry into F1 will give any technical advances to their production vehicles. Maybe in Formula E?

Direct fuel injection first entered Formula one in 1954 and is now standard in production vehicles. (Even port fuel injection was banned in Nascar untill 2012.)

because fuel tank size, and max fuel flow are restricted, teams have to develop fuel efficient or they cant make the power to win. So for GM theres a lot to learn from competing in F1..

 

[JasperFrank]

6 Miles per gallon?

 

[Renze]

6 Miles per gallon?

I have no idea, but the 1980s turbo era when fuel was dumped into the engine just to cool it, are over...

 

[Renze]

What happens when a European team enters an American racing series and does it the European way, instead of trying to emulate the American way: The technology gets banned, so theres no incentive for its domestic manufacturers to keep up...

 

[5030]

They all sound like angry bumblebees to me. What I find interesting is that late model cars cannot seem to attain good fuel milage and why I drive my not in production anymore Focus RS turbo. Gets 40 mpg, stops on a dime, corners like it's on rails too.

I don't get it.

 

[Renze]

Focus RS turbo.

With the Volvo 5 pot ? Or a later model

 

[Renze]

late model cars cannot seem to attain good fuel milage and why I drive my not in production anymore Focus RS turbo.

Weight, frontal area, tire and driveline drag, because everybody buys SUVs or crossovers nowadays ? Ford discontinued the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo in favour of the C-max, Kuga, and what not.

 

[5030]

Not something I need... AWD or 4 wheel drive (which is in reality is 2 wd without locking differentials). Being sort of retired and owning a machine and fab shop on the farm property, going to work isn't an option now. If the weather is bad, the Focus stays parked and my wife has an AWD Suburban anyway so she drives. I was looking at new vehicles and I was appalled at the listed fuel mileages. Years ago my wife an AMC Alliance and it got over 40 as well. Nice thing about the RS is, it's a sleeper supercar, well capable of smoking a 5 liter Mustang GT but gets exceptional fuel mileage when driven sanely and unlike a Mustang GT, it insures as a 'station Wagon' here in Michigan, as in cheap. It has to be the most 'fun' car I ever owned. Too bad Fords quit making them.

One thing about a AWD or a 4wd suv. They might go good but they don't stop any better on ice or snowy roads than a normal buggy and that sudden stop (as in hitting something) is always bad.

Couple months ago I had a tree limb fall on the RS and the insurance wanted to total it. I said no way and my body shop guy worked the crash estimate to come in just below the totaled value, so he fixed it, I paid the difference and I still have it. Not about to buy a new ride with the cost of one. Have not had a car payment in many years. Don't want one either. Bought the RS off lease in 2016 and paid cash for it. Leased by some lady who must have been obese because I had to replace the weather strip moulding around the drivers door, It was totally destroyed where she obviously drug her butt getting in...lol

She didn't drive it much either, because I bought it with under 12K on the clock and still had factory warranty on it.

People today really want a slush box, not a close ratio 6 speed which is what the RS has. Kids today don't even know how to drive anything but a PRNDL car. Myself, I prefer a standard box, always.

When we go out to a classy beanery, she always drives because most valet parking people don't have a clue with that lever is for in the console. let alone a 3rd pedal on the floor.

Inly real expensive item on it is the tires. They are low profile speed rated and expensive. Just bought 4 new ones (car has over 75K on it now) and they were a wallet buster and it's a GDI engine so I have to clean the intakes every oil change. Not a big deal actually once you get the procedure down. It has a catch can on it but still some (blowby vapor) gets by. I find 323 ponies out of a 2.0 liter 4 banger to be amazing and it gets exceptional fuel economy as well. Be my last car I hope.