Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

MarkV,

I had some concerns about the vertical stabilizers as well. As with anything, there are tradeoffs and compromises involved - you get a little, you give a little. The most important tradeoff here, to me, basically is: if you want to work tight up against the side of a building, you have to have a vertical stabilizer. Anything else involves slowing down a bit, or being a bit more careful, as opposed to simply "can't be done". So the verticals come out ahead on that basis. As for the stability issue, consider this: What do those huge truck cranes use? Almost all of them use vertical stabilizers. So, it's a matter of knowing how to use what you have to get to do all the jobs you have on your plate. Or, put another way: I'm sure there's less stability there, but I can live with it, in order to be able to do everything I need to do.

The tires are a bit of a concern, too. Here's my take, so far (subject to correction by actual usage, of course /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif): There's a huge net loss when comparing the rear tires of my Kubota L4310HST to the ones on the EarthForce EF-5. There's a less huge net gain when comparing the front tires of the two machines. BUT, the front tires are more important in the typical usage I put a machine to, because of the loader and bucket contents weight. So that evens things out a bit, or maybe even swings the balance a bit in favor of the EF-5's tires. There are Michelin XM27's available that will fit the EF-5's stock wheels and add about an inch to the width. If actual usage of the EF-5 indicates that the tires are a big liability, I'll have some 20" wheels made and go to 2"-3" wider tires. Been there, done that. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

MarkC

 

[MarkV]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark,

<font color=blue>If actual usage of the EF-5 indicates that the tires are a big liability, I'll have some 20" wheels made and go to 2"-3" wider tires. Been there, done that. </font color=blue>

Shoot Mark, this thing will look like a monster truck before you are done./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I also see you adding a way to extend the stabilizers out (like the concrete pump rigs) when you don't need to be next to the wall.

Oh heck, Earth Force might as well add you to their R&D department now. They have no idea what they are in for./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for the insight.

MarkV

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - I don't dispute the points you make at all - just the weighting of them, I guess. I agree that transferring power by mechanical means is the most efficient, I'm just becoming less and less convinced of it's practicality as time goes by.

Carraro is a manufacturer of axles, gearboxes, and planetary drives based in Italy. They have a web site, http://www.carraro.com, which for some reason doesn't work for me.

Rexroth is a German-based manufacturer of just about anything and everything in the way of hydraulics that you can think of. Their web site, http://www.boschrexroth-us.com, is pretty informative. They also have a large US presence.

I thought about the EF-6 - it would be nice to have all that power - but it's too heavy to transport comfortably, doesn't have HST and, besides, more isn't always necessary better. I can't believe I just said that... /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Anyway, keep in mind that the EF-5 has way more power than an L48. Changes your perspective a bit, doesn't it?

MarkC

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, I have to admit I have been anxiously waiting for your response, that is most unusual for me on this forum. I think it shows just how much I value your opinion. I did not realize the EF6 was not HST, now I need the EF5. The loader specs are truly remarkable. I will also tell you that I am at least 1/4 Czech so I should be proud that they have something well made over there. Thanks for the update regarding the Italian and German contibutors to this product, I know that a lot of thought went into building it. I received an eMail from my local distributor of EarthForce. I will give him a call to talk about costs. I still need a 3 pt. hitch so I think EarthForce will be out of the question, but I like to go into something like this armed with some knowledge and conclusions that I made the right choice. You have been a wealth of knowledge and I certainly hope that you get the "dream" machine you deserve. More then any member on this board I have enjoyed your comments and suggestions then anyone. Now my thoughts are, keep the International 454D with "lightening shift" for mowing and use the EF5 for moving DIRT! Did you tell me if its available without the hoe? As much as I would love to learn how to use one correctly, at this point, my needs for one are still pretty limited. If I end up with a L4610 or L 48TL, I'll still converse with you even if you are up a notch or two on the tractor scale, Best Wishes, Rat...

 

[DarinRay]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Wow- you change your mind like I change my underwear/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif...Just kidding I know from most of your post that I've read that you read up and find out tons of info on most things and then make you decisions. I am wondering though if you mentioned what was asked earlier about the cost of these machines.

Darin

p.s.- I've been here awhile and probably didn't read posts that included info on what type of work that you perform so if you could lead me in that direction I woudl appreciate it. Or if you didn't post such topics what do you do with these beasts? Thanks in advance

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - Thanks! EarthForce machines are available without the backhoe, but you'd need one heck of a counterweight to make it useful. You can buy a counterweight from EarthForce as a custom order item. No big deal, really - mine is being custom-made, in fact. It takes 6-8 weeks to get one, that's all.

Here's a bit of information that you may find interesting: When I posted my original query about EarthForce machines last December, it was because I'd seen a rental unit in Greensboro, NC and the brochure I got then said a 3-point hitch is available. When I found out that no mechanical PTO was offered, I forgot about it, which is basically where you're at now. (I'm not claiming to be "further evolved" than you are in the tractor purchasing food chain, just telling you the progression of events as they happened for me.) Then, I saw the Power Trac, and I loved it. As you know, my initial reaction was to wonder how their 3-point hitch could be so stupidly designed. They seemed to think it wasn't a big deal, and actually said nobody have ever complained about it. That told me that not many people actually used it. Then I wondered why. Then my engineer friend told me why: that kind of machine doesn't really work well with a 3-point hitch. But he didn't say that should nix the deal, just that I should reconsider my having to have one. That line of thinking naturally progressed to my looking at TLB's, which reminded me of the EarthForce I'd seen last year. The rest you know.

The one area I can think of that I may still really miss the 3-point hitch is in road grading. I like to haul gravel from a stock pile in the bucket (which will now require a lot fewer trips, using the big 1.75 yd bucket!), then spread it with the blade on the back. With the EF-5, I'll have to do those things in separate steps, but I have a feeling I'll really like not having to look over my shoulder all the time while I'm grading, which should also greatly increase the speed I can work at. So, as I said before, it's all about compromises. As long as it seems like I'm gaining something as important, or more so, than what I'm giving up, I'm weighing it all very carefully and trying to keep an open mind. Will there be things I miss about the Kubota after I've used the EF-5 a while? I'm absolutely certain of it. Will I be happier overall with the EF-5? I'm just as certain of that. My Kubota just had too many limitations for what I was doing. I need to be able to move cubes of brick and full pallets of shingles, for example. The EF-5 will. I'm sore for a week and usually end up visiting the chiropractor after drilling a hundred or so holes with the 3-point mounted auger. I'm sure I'll occasionally wish the EF-5 had a 3-point hitch and a mechanical PTO, but when I weigh the things I'm getting instead, I think I'll be happy to exchange them.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Darin - I assume your question was directed to me, not to Rat, since he probably changes his underwear, I mean mind, a lot less frequently than I do. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

The retail base cost of an EF-5 is about $40k. Crab steering adds $2k, a 4-in-1 bucket $2k, sideshift backhoe $2k, full blown remote hydraulics and quick attaches front and rear another $2k, approximately.

As for my uses, I do a lot of road grading, a lot of clearing & brush cutting, a lot of landscaping. The landscaping jobs I do involve grading, leveling, stump removal, preparing grass seed beds, putting in decorative ponds, placing decorative stones (as in boulders), hauling lots of mulch, organic material (as in manure), and fill, and digging lots and lots and lots of holes for trees and shrubs. And then there's the usual stuff necessary to maintain 150 acres and 2 miles of driveway.

MarkC

 

[gordon]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Ok who is taking bets that Mark will change his mind again before it gets here./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Sounds like a much better choice and overall design. Sideshift hoe is real handy at times. As well as the crab walk that could be real nice once you get wedged against a wall.

Got any stuff left over from the Kubota ya want to get rid of? Remember I pay top dollar.---cash money---/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Gordon

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Gordon - I can't change my mind this time - they already have my money...

As for the tractor stuff, a guy who owns a large estate about 15 minutes from my house bought the whole works in a package deal. I'm equipmentless, except for my customized tiller with the scarifier bar on the front of it (which I'm looking for a hydraulic motor for), and my custom-built soil pulverizer. I'm going to put Bobcat-style quick-attach plates on both of them and use them on the EF-5.

MarkC

 

[DarinRay]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

MarkC,

Thanks for the info and by the sounds of it it is a nicely priced piece of equipment. I just wasn't sure if you did this work commercially or if it was around your homestead. With 155 acres you could call it commercially though. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I am one to buy things that peolple have never heard of or hardly heard of and find that the only draw back is resale value and the more time required for the sale if you ever decide to sell it. But I also dont' make money with my equipment so I need to get top dollar or as close to top dollar as I can to justify my next purchase,,,which from my last dealings might be awhile now. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif "SHould be Off Topic and NO Fun" or something like that was the post about my deal gone bad.

Darin

 

[Woodbeef]

Brush Brute

Hey man,

Give the people at Brush Brute a break eh!! They are a very small family run company,and it is farm show season up here! Maybe also take into consideration that this is RURAL ONTARIO,not the mega populated east coast of the USA!! If you've left messages,do not worry the Scissons will get back to you. Yes,the implement is worth waiting for!!

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Brush Brute

Well, that's comforting. I'll pass that info on to my dealer. He's a bit torqued because of trying to get all the prices and info together (and I need a lot of info /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif), and they're the only folks he hasn't been able to get hold of yet. I tried calling to leave a message, too, just in case, but the three times I called, there wasn't even an answering machine, so I guess it's on the fritz, too - or full, most likely. Thanks for the insight. I'll give them until the 15th of this month - if we haven't heard from them by then, I'll do something else.

It may be too expensive anyway, from what I've heard. Do you know what I should expect to pay for one about 78" wide? It would need to be a HD model, able to withstand use on a 5,000 lb class loader. Do they make more than one grade?

MarkC

 

[hoghead]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mchalkey,
Wow...I never new such a beast existed !!! Sounds like this machine will do almost any thing you ask of it..Although I haven't a need for such a machine, one could see where you could use one..One thing that caught my attention, though,was that the machine was made in the Czech Republic.The reason this interests me is an experience that I had with a Allis 5040 tractor that I owned.This tractor was made in Romania.. It seemed that every time I need parts for this tractor, they were available, but at such a price that was 2 to 3 times what normal tractor parts prices were..For example, a starter solenoid was over $300, and a clutch was $2500.Now you can see why I sold the tractor! Which brings me back to my earlier observation, made in the Czech Republic.My first instinct tells me that parts for this machine, which everyone knows you will eventually need, may be available , but may come with a high price tag. But after reading some of you earlier posts, you probably have already checked this angle out.But one other problem that I can see is that you will have to make a new color coordinated cup to adhere to the fender!!!!!!!!!!!Other than that I think you made a fine decision!!!!!!!!

Hoghead

 

[kcook]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

What a great piece of equipment, but for my needs to big! I like many others need a mower first and the other attachments second! The power Trac is still my first choice!
KCook

 

[Woodbeef]

Re: Brush Brute

Yes,it will handle your loader,there is only one model of each width,all are very HD. I've had one for 5 years now,it is around 7' or so.I paid $1800 CDN for it delivered with special brackets for an odd-ball loader on my Steyr. We've used it on a Case 580K with no problems. Only problem I've found is that when used on a farm tractor,you usually run out of hydraulic lift first!!

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Brush Brute

Well, I'm definitely looking forward to finding out the availability and cost of a Brush Brute, then. I've sure got the need, and I'll definitely have the power to use it. As of this afternoon, they still had not responded to the three messages my dealer has left them. I'll keep you posted.

MarkC

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark one of the things that makes this machine very appealing to me and to most any other contractor is that it is backed up by Ingersol. They are a teriffic corporation. Regardless of your dislike of skidsteers, they make other really superb products like their excavators. Parts are a snap to get and I think rather reasonable. Certainly knowing that this machine has IR to back it up is a bonus. Would love to try the EF5 or EF6 sometime. I spoke with a JCB backhoe owner once and he mentioned that JCB experimented with hydrostatic drive but never brought it to fruition, Rat...

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - I agree - the EarthForce acquisition by I-R and it's affiliation with the Bobcat name is a huge success for the product line. It's also a huge bonus for the typical equipment dealer who manages to acquire the opportunity to represent the EarthForce line. Before the EarthForce, there was very little alternative to skid steers in the light to medium duty construction equipment market. There's really very little competition in this size class, and none at this price point, as far as I can see.

The EarthForce seems to be pretty much exactly what I was looking for, though I had to make considerable adjustment in my preferred "form factor". As I've said, I really wanted to stay with the removeable backhoe/three point hitch capable type of machine, but it just doesn't scale well.

Now, on the other hand, the ability to put skid steer type implements on the front, and mini-excavator style implements on the back, simultaneously, is what swung the deal for me. My EF-5 is going to be the first one to have the hydraulic version of the skid steer-style quick-attach. It was strange. It just so happened that when I was visiting the distribution center in SC, the president of the Superstav, the man who created the company in the first place, just happened to be there. I told him I thought they really needed the hydraulic quick-attach, and he said "done". And so it is, it seems. I also told him I thought it needed power tilt, and that's being worked on, he said. There's already an attachment that will accomplish this, but it would be nice to have it built in.

I was extremely impressed with the quality of the hydraulic controls. The loader, 4-in-1, and backhoe joysticks are as smooth as any I've ever used, truly professional quality.

Tractive power was excellent, I thought. My test was to push the empty machine up against the loading dock. At about half throttle, I was able to creep all four tires on rough concrete, not asphalt. Of course, the real test will be in actual usage, but I'll be able to report on that before too long.

I think what I'm looking forward to most of all, though, is being able to perform most work looking forward instead of over my shoulder all day long.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Hoghead - I think there are a couple of relevant factors, as far as parts pricing is concerned. I expect the pricing of the cylinder parts and frame to be higher than typical tractor prices, both because it's built in the Czech Republic, and because construction equipment is a lot more expensive, anyway.

As for the rest of the machine, though, the Kubota engine stuff is the same as any other Kubota part, the Rexroth hydraulics are common in the U.S., so they'll be priced similarly to other stuff in the same class. The Carraro axles are also used on other equipment, like Case, for example. Finally, the fact that they're now owned by Ingersoll-Rand should make a huge difference in parts availability and pricing. At least, I hope so.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rick (of TiltMeter fame) -

Ok, so I'm getting a new TLB, right? Now, everyone (well almost everyone) knows that TLB stability is a mixed bag, right? You've got this massive backhoe assembly that raises the center of gravity quite a bit, which in turn, reduces stability. On the plus side, you can swing the assembly to the uphill side when working on slopes to negate this to some extent and (according to Ober's TLB safety and techniques book), in some cases, make it more stable than a similar piece of equipment without a backhoe. This is probably even more true of a machine with a sideshift backhoe, like the EarthForce. Nevertheless, this means added understanding and attention on the part of the user, namely me. So, as you can imagine, I'm going to be very interested in an excellent TiltMeter setup. I'm just not sure yet how I'm going to want to do it, and where I'm going to want to put it. I'm thinking about combining the weatherproof model #51 with a single-axis warning module. I'm thinking I'd like to be able to switch the warning beeper off, though, because, if I get into a 20-degree situation, for example, but I've compensated by moving the backhoe, I don't want the beeper continuously going off. Do you offer a limited duration beeper? It's no big deal, if you don't. I can just put a switch on it. The only problem with that, of course, is remembering to turn it back on.

Question: Have you ever heard of anyone offering a means of monitoring the relative weight on the wheels? I guess it could be very complicated, but I'm not talking about anything extremely precise, just something that would give you feedback about the relative weight distribution of the machine. The result, of course, would be a 100% accurate (at that moment) indication of the stability of the machine, wouldn't it? Maybe it could be done by monitoring the air pressure in the tires, but that would require a lot more precise instrumentation as far as the sensors goes. I don't know - I haven't thought it through at all - I was just rambling and wondering.

MarkC