Goodbye Kubota, hello EarthForce

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Charlie - I didn't notice the noise to be a problem on the new machine, but an older one I drove was pretty bad. I don't know if the new ones are quieter or the old one had a bad muffler, but there was quite a difference.

MarkC

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Thanks Mark. I only drove one 1430, and found it unacceptably loud. When I get one, I'll add a supplemental muffler. Other mods will not be to correct perceived weaknesses, but to expand utility.

Charlie Iliff

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Hmm, Mark, I took a look at the Power-Trac video and info they sent me and thought " why is McChalkley so impressed with this machine"? I am impressed with the apparent durability with which the machine is constructed, but I'm used to that with Vermeer and Ditchwitch products. All that extra thick steel makes for a good and tough weld a hook or attachment anywhere kinda machine. What did not impress me was the apparent lack of ability to use so much of the products available to utility tractor owners at least effectively. The lack of a PTO even though it had hydraulic ability to run some implements. Perhaps it was the articulating feature that puzzled me most though. You are quite right about getting the machine nuzzled up against a wall and having to worm your way out. I used to drive a Cat articulating loader and in the open areas it was great, up near the concrete block walls it was another story and a lot of caution was required. The Earth Force looks dynamite. The engine it uses is also a great engine. Ingersol uses Kubotas engines in many of their products. So, can this machine come without a hoe? Does it have a PTO and 3pt. setup? I have a EarthForce dealer right around the corner from me, AE Sales in Placerville, CA. Naturally now I must investigate further. I checked their site and not enough info. Whats the ballpark figure cost wise. Anywhere near the Utility tractors prices?Thanks for all the great info, Rat...

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Rat - As I said, I'm still no less impressed with the Power Trac, just less convinced of its suitability for my needs. There are a lot of things about the Power Trac that I really like. It's an incredible machine.

There's no mechanical PTO or 3-point hitch available for the EarthForce. There used to be a 3-point hitch made for it, but they dropped it due to lack of interest.

I don't share your view of hydraulic motors. It's true that there is some loss of efficiency, but it's not all that much. It's sort of like the HST vs. gear transmissions issue. Yes, there's some efficiency loss, but you gain it back in most situations by being able to more precisely control the power. And once you get used to the many other advantages, you could care less about a few percentage points of efficiency. You start thinking "What size HST will I need to do this job?" instead of "I wonder if this size tractor will have to have a gear transmission to do the job?" With hydraulic vs. mechanical PTO, too, there are incredible advantages on the hydraulic side. For one, and not the least, to my way of thinking, is the ease of use. I'm sick and tired of PTO shafts. For another, shock loads, as encountered with augers and rotary cutters, are much better managed by a hydraulic motor than by gear to gear transmission. Hydraulic motors aren't cheap, but they're a lot easier to rebuild than a tractor transmission. If I destroy something while using a rotary cutter, I'd a whole lot rather the cutter be the only thing damaged, so I can continue to use the tractor for other things. It's also much easier to put hydraulic power where you need it. It's also a lot more versatile - things you couldn't dream of doing with mechanical power transmission are easy with hydraulics. As for high-revving, it's true that you need enough engine speed to produce sufficient flow for the job at hand, but that's more a matter of appropriate design and proper operation than it is a problem with the approach itself. And for my money, if it comes down to it, I'd rather spend it on a larger engine and pay the fuel costs, too, to get the advantages of an all-hydraulic system. After all, that's why I'm using a tractor, and not my poor aching back.

So, what do you think? Are you convinced yet? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

MarkC

 

[MarkV]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark,

Can you please use your skill with words to explain the side shift backhoe option. Thanks and congrats on picking out your new toy.

MarkV

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

MarkV,

Sure! But rather than wait 'till then, how 'bout I just go ahead and do it now instead? (Um, sorry. What I meant to say was: "Thanks for the kind words!")

The sideshift backhoe allows you to shift the backhoe boom to either side so you can dig right up against existing walls, etc. It also comes with vertical stabilizers, so no clearance beyond the edge of the tires is required. The big black thing on the back of the tractor which can be seen in the picture John inserted in his reply is the sideshift/stabilizer mechanism. As you can barely see, there's quite a bit more there than is found on a normal centered-only attachment point. It also adds about $2k to the cost of the machine. One important thing to note about the EarthForce sideshift mechanism: It's a manual sideshift, i.e. you unlock the hydraulic locks that hold it in place, then use the boom/dipper/bucket controls to pull the backhoe to the side you want it on, then lock it down again. Some sideshift backhoes have cylinders to push/pull the backhoe from side to side, but not this one. That's not a real disadvantage, in my book.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been-EarthForce

John,

What do you know about Carraro axles? You described them as "bullet-proof", so I just wondered if you have any experience with them. I know Case uses them in some of their equipment, but that's about all.

I can tell you that I'm extremely impressed with the EarthForce. It's not built 100% out of plate steel, like the Power Trac is, but it's got plenty of steel where it counts. Just looking at the weights of the machines will tell you that. I'm buying mine through Jason @ Folcomer Equipment in Baltimore, MD, (800) 218-9462. He's been really great to deal with. Anybody that can tolerate my questions and not show any irritation is amazing.

I drove all the way to SC to the distribution center to see the EF-5. Folcomer only had the EF-4 and smaller in stock. Their ads are right: Nothing else in their size class will touch them for features, performance or price.

FWIW, I've attached a little larger, higher resolution jpg copy of the pic you posted inline.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been-EarthForce

I promised some more info on attachments. Here's some of the stuff I'm working on getting with the machine.

1.75 yd large capacity light material bucket, to go along with the stock 2/3 yd. 4-in-1
FrontRunner (FFC) grader rake (http://ruralhometech.com/fr/main.php) instead of a blade for road grading, cleanup, etc.
McMillen hydraulic planetary drilling head and 30"/18" tree auger with mini-excavator quick disconnect for use on backhoe boom
6' foot 3" capacity rotary cutter
Pallet forks
Brush Brute (if they'll ever return our phone calls - does anyone know how to get hold of these people? - if so, pass along a tip from me on how to increase sales: ANSWER THE PHONE!!!)
Some other odds and ends, of course, like hitch adapter, etc. but that's the bulk of it, for now.

MarkC

 

[MarkV]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark,

Thanks for the information. I thought that was what was ment by the term "side shift backhoe". I have been knowen to open mouth and insert foot, so I figured I would make sure what I was thinking was correct. I am wondering if the vertical stabilizers work as well as the conventional angled stabilizers on the smaller TLB's. I understand their need with the side shift, but I rock my little B21 up on the stabilizers all the time. I know you will have much more heft, but you also have a lot more power.

Do you have any feelings that the smaller tire sizes on this machine will be a disadvantage in muddy conditions? As I recall, you have been knowen to put your machines in some sticky situations./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkV

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: What a long, strange trip it\'s been...

Mark, I was thinking about the type of work you do with regards to the PowerTrac. It most definitely is a nice machine and well suited for some. The Earth Force certainly seems to fill the bill in regards to the work I understood you to do. I am more impressed with the Earth Force for my needs then the PowerTrac. If it had a mechanical PTO and 3 pt. for my mower and power rake, and turns out to be competively priced, I would consider it. As far as hydraulic motors go, you are quite correct. Nothing beats a hydraulic motor for many applications. A power auger is where a hydraulic motor shines. Simplicty of hook up is great to although I have very little problems using a PTO shaft implement. My biggest concern about hydraulic motors is in the fact that they are rather inefficienct at the high RPM's such as in the use of a mower. In the Graingers book I recall seeing the power factors for various motors. The hydraulic motor was by far the most inferior in its ability to efficiently use a rotating energy source like an electric or internal combustion motor to run a pump which in turn returned to a rotating force. The problem was increased when a high volume hydraulic motor is used with similar pressures. The flow rates go up very, very high. Other then a mower, I could very easily adapt to the hydraulic efficiency issue. I agree with your assement about the hydraulic motor, who cares about a few more HP's when the obvious advantages of the hydraulic motor really shine as in shock loads and quick coupler convienence. I recall speaking with a Vermeer dealer about their trenchers and asked why they put on such underpowered diesels on their trenchers. He told me its not so much that they are underpowered but rather the chain hydraulic motor required such an enormous amount of fluid flow, thus the huge hydraulic lines feeding it. On the other hand, I would not want a belt driven, PTO driven, or any other non hydraulic driven motor for such a use. It is very well suited for this application and its ability to withstain shock is a great attribute. And speaking of being well suited, the wheel drive motors for the trenchers are the only way to do it. Infinitely adjustable up to a max. speed. Perfect application. Now, tells us what the heck a Carraro drive train is and what rexroth hydraulics are. I think I would like the EF6. Thanks, Rat...

P.S. I see my picture of the EF6 did not get the whole tractor. Man, that is one nice tractor, maybe I'll get 2 of them.