grapple bucket installation

[Garrabo]

I knew there was something else I wanted to run past the plethra of info on this site. I am pretty close to getting the 448 hoe and a root rake grapple bucket for my 3120. the dealer seems to be perplexed on where to mount a remote to operate the grapple.
anyone have any suggestions that I can run past the dealer on this? also does the duel selective control valve have anything to do with this application?
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[rockyridgefarm]

I would love to have a grapple. One big hurdle, other than money is how to control it.

I have been trying to solve this riddle. Here is what I have found. Others will be reading this they might either not have a clue and this will help them, or if I am wrong the Smart Ones can correct me!

Your loader is controlled by the DSCV (dual selective control valve) which controls two pairs of remotes On your loader that raises and lowers the boom. And it curls and uncurls your bucket.

But the valve block has a 3rd function built in. This is a likely suspect for running a grapple. It is in the valve block, but needs a control lever and the plumbing to be used. Deere's factory solution puts the lever in front of the rockshaft control lever (between the seat and fender). The ports go on the back, above the 3point.

That setup is fine for a hydraulic toplink. But it means that the hoses for the grapple need to run to the back, and to operate the grapple you keep taking your hand off the joystick to operate the grapple. Which is fine, but you usually would like to do both at the same time. Now if you have three hands...

Another solution is a diverter. This is a switch that actuates solenoids on the same pair of ports controlled by the existing joystick. Hit the switch and the joystick toggles from operating the loader to whatever the second function might be. The remotes are in the rear again and this would be really handy for a top and tilt. Not perfect, because you still might like to have control of the loader, but almost perfect in real life.

But still, you have to take your hand from the joystick to mash the switch (which is likely to be in the same area as the 3rd control lever, but since this is an electric switch (the 3rd is a cable operated thing) It could go elsewhere. Maybe you can get it up on the joystick...

Which is available as the Fasse setup. This is the diverter which has the switch on the joystick handle. More handy than the fender mount, but still not perfect.

Perfect might be having the 3rd function controlled by a lever on the DSCV joystick. The cable might even be able to route part of the way through the stick itself. No one does this that I have seen, likely for good reason. No one ever accused me of having good reason... I am toying with this idea. It seems like it would be fairly low cost, and if it worked would be Very Handy.

BTW - A whole 'nuther angle is adding an additional new block, with its own levers. You'd end up with levers everywhere, and a plumbing mess, but everything could work at once, especially if the levers were down by your left foot! Hey, I rarely use my brake; maybe I can change the pedal into valve controls...

 

[Dutch445]

hmm

something like a 110 backhoe has?


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[rockyridgefarm]

you tell me, you're the BigBrain. Does it have the third function on the stick? Could that happen on a green machine?

Ok this is the 110 stick (from Deere.com)

Standard hydraulic dual selective control valve (SCV) operation is unchanged.

A - Third SCV On/Off Switch - Turns third SCV on or off.

B - Third SCV Momentary Switch - Sends hydraulic fluid to the third SCV quick couplers while switch is depressed.

C - Third SCV Continuous Switch - Sends hydraulic fluid to the third SCV quick couplers as long as switch is in A or B position

 

[rockyridgefarm]

That's what I want!

 

[jeepinator]

You would lose the analog/proportional control a joystick gives you, but how about a simple open/close rocker switch on the joystick?

e.g.

Credit: WR Long

I would not know since I have never used anything that grapples. Perhaps slamming the thing open and closed would be bad. Until this thread I thought that's how the WR Long setup worked. But now I am thinking it's just activating a diverter turning the joystick into a jaw control... ?

 

[jeepinator]

I saw that switch as a rocker with a center detent. Perhaps it is a momentary push instead?

 

[ddivinia]

My 5525 has the same style joystick as the 110 - it is very handy. I am still wondering what that 3rd button on there is for... I use the open and close, but what is the other one? Or is it a button?

D.

 

[dubba]

The forward button on the 110 is for momentary pause/activation of the selected circuit. The circuit can be preselected to run constant flow in either direction & this button will activate/deactivate it

 

[ddivinia]

OK - cool deal.

Thanks,
D.

 

[Garrabo]

what is a 'power beyond'. my dealer mentioned something about this. is it something for the grapple?

 

[tom30519]

Power beyond is a direct connection to the hydraulic system, to hook up attachments that have their own control valves. If you are getting the 448 backhoe, it requires the power beyond option. In JD's setup, they install a loopthrough connection where the dual SCV manifold would normally feed the 3PH control valve. To hook up the 448 you disconnect this short loop, connect the BH's input in it's place, and connect the BH's output to a third (normally unused) connection that goes directly to the hydraulic sump. Note that the 3PH will no longer work (no pressure), but it has been removed to put on the backhoe anyway...

I use the 3rd SCV control to run my 4-in-1 bucket, similar to a grapple. I opted for the JD "third hydraulic option" on my 400CX loader, which has metal tubing properly installed, provides the quick-connects for removing the loader, and runs hoses back to the rear of the tractor, where the 3rd SCV outlets are, on the same bracket as the power beyond, actually.

I find that this setup works very well, for me. I prefer having the joystick always controlling the loader, and don't mind moving my hand down slightly to work the bucket control. One less switch and set of electric solenoids to go wrong, too.

Tom.

 

[jtfx6552]

I believe JD sells a kit to do this, i was quoted $291.00 for the "Third Line and hose kit".

I've been gong back and forth on this issue myself.

I think a switch on the existing joystick would be good, easier than reaching down to third control lever.

i am trying to decide if the switch should be a momentary operating a six way selector valve, or a 3 postiton switch operating a third spool off the power beyond port.

Both have minor advantages over the other.

The momentary/selector valve would allow one axis of the existing joystick to open and close the grapple with good control as the joystick would meter just like it dees when controlling the FEL. I guess some sort of pilot opertaed check or counterbalnce valve could be plumbed to the cylinder so that it would "lock" the closing pressure in the grapple cylinder when the momentary button is released.

A seperate spool with a bang bang sol valve off the power beyond would work nice too, and would allow holding pump pressure on the grapple while using the other two functions of the FEL. This would generate a little heat in the hyd oil since you'd be going over relief while holding pressure on the grapple cyl. Of course this setup could also be used with PO checks or CB valves as well.

I am wondering how the valve is set up on my 4120. i have the third SCV, but i don't know how JD handles power beyond. Is the port on the valve? Typically on a "convertable" valve, a plug or sleeve is removed (or added) to convert to power beyond. Anyone know for sure?

JT

 

[tom30519]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am wondering how the valve is set up on my 4120. i have the third SCV, [...] Anyone know for sure?)</font>

Yep. I have the JD tech manual (on CD) for the Twenty series, and they have several schematics and clear explanations of the hydraulic system.

The outlet port on the 3SCV normally is connected to the input of the 3PH control valves. For Power Beyond, they break that connection and bring it out to the back of the tractor, where there is a short loop-through hose with a quick-connect feeding back into the 3PH. From there it drains into the sump.

The backhoe takes it's hydraulic feed from the PB output, but doesn't feed back into the 3PH. Instead, it flows directly to the sump through a third, normally unused, quick connect.

Was that what you wanted to know?

Tom.

 

[Garrabo]

I understand that the 3 point hitch is removed when the hoe is installed? I like my 3 point hitch, is it easy to hook back up if the hoe is removed. I have heard that the hoe is pretty easy to remove. any insight on this?

 

[tom30519]

The 3 point hitch comes off and goes back on in a few minutes. Only the two arms (drag links), plus the vertical lift links, have to come off, and they are attached with locking pins.

The reason the hitch must be removed is that the backhoe gets lifted onto the tractor using the rock shaft, which are the two short arms sticking out of the top of the transmission, the ones that do the actual lifting. The hoe is mounted nice and close to the tractor which makes for a very tight coupling, but this also means that the 3 point hitch would be in the way.

In fact, removing or reinstalling the 3 point hitch hardware is probably the longest part of putting on the backhoe! But we're talking just a few minutes here. It really is an impressive bit of engineering on JD's part.

Tom.

 

[psj45703006]

OK I am now writing this because you have said exactly what i have thaught about my 4300 I was going to buy this kit tomorow 3rd scv kit, but I feel there has to be something better, right? So my thought has been buy the cable and its brackets ect. then find a lever of some sort ( my main hurtle) hook it all on my joystick and and there you have it. as far as the plumbing go soft or hard lines from the 3 valve run them with the exsisting bucket lines to two quick disconnects at the bucket. feed back where did you wind up.