Grapple Hydralics

[IslandTractor]

I guess if I'm gonna spend this much money I may as well get the extra set of remotes huh? So, do I just need the extra one up front (is it called a front remote?) since it's for the grapple anyway, and just keep the one in back?

Although it would in theory be possible to rig up a set of front remotes, I haven't heard of anyone doing that on a CUT. Generally you would add a second set of rear remotes and then run hydraulic hose with appropriate fittings to the front in order to control the grapple. The main reason to have two sets of rear remotes is that there are some implements such as a top and tilt hydraulic toplink that require two rear remotes to operate. Most hydraulically operated equipment on CUTs, with the notable exceptions of a 4n1 bucket and grapple operate off rear remotes so extra remotes are generally ganged together in the rear. Factory kits to install extra remotes are virtually always plumbed as rear remotes so you'd have a little project on your hands to alter a kit for a front remote.

That said, there are many skid steer implements that do run off of front hydraulics so your question is quite reasonable. Many of the hydraulically run front skid steer attachments tend to require high flow rates that are rarely achievable with standard CUT hydraulic pumps so even if you had front remotes you could not run a front mounted hydraulic bush hog device for example. There are a few front mounted skid steer devices that could be run from a standard CUT such as a "tree lopper" (not sure what these are really called but they are essentially hydraulic scissors that cut saplings and even 8-10 inch trees off at ground level or can reach up to cut limbs). Again, don't get too excited about these front mounted skid steer devices unless you are a good fabricator as they are quite spendy.

Bottom line is that an extra set of rear remotes (two complete sets) can be quite useful and so long as your dealer doesn't gouge you, are not terribly expensive to add when you buy the tractor. You can buy the factory kit and add it yourself later too so it is not a now or never decision.

 

[IslandTractor]

Does your backhoe fit on the new machine also?

I traded my CK20 TLB (including backhoe) on the new DK40se and a new Woods BH90X backhoe which does run off one of the rear remotes.

 

[curly]

So, when they added the front hydralic valve on the Montana (that they decided to keep ), what did they do? Did they run it off of one of the sets of remotes on the back? Or was it completely seperate? I'm really confused now.

I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY what I need to ask the dealer when I request the up front valve...because I do want the spare one in the back. I don't have a backhoe...yet, but that may be a next year gift

On a sidebar:
When I do a dealer search, I get 5 dealers with the furthest of the 5 being 63 miles away. There may not be a ton of play in these CUTS but I may be able to get one of them to throw in the labor on the new valve and maybe give me a good price on pick-up and delivery if I have a problem.

 

[IslandTractor]

So, when they added the front hydralic valve on the Montana (that they decided to keep ), what did they do? Did they run it off of one of the sets of remotes on the back? Or was it completely seperate? I'm really confused now.

I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY what I need to ask the dealer when I request the up front valve...because I do want the spare one in the back. .

Well, I obviously don't have specific info on that Montana and I don't know if Montana has some special front remote set up option (I doubt it) so I imagine what they did was have the grapple hooked up to the rear remote. That is the simpliest solution costwise and as they did not plan to charge you for a diverter valve that must have been the set up.

As more than one set of rear remotes is a good thing generally and as you can always decide later to add an FEL diverter valve, I would (did) in your situation just order an extra set of rear remotes. If you go with the Kioti then you'd have the exact rear remote set up I do (photos). Two sets of remotes and two controller levers next to your right knee. One controller would be for the BH (it has a fixed indents so it will stay in position for BH use) and the second lever that does not lock into position which would make it ideal for running a grapple (you never really want to leave the grapple cylinder activated once you've opened or closed it...not good for the grapple or for the tractor hydraulics so better to use the spring loaded valve that doesn't accidently lock).

Photos show 1: two sets of rear remotes just above and to the left of the toplink. 2: rear remote controls next to FEL controller (which has WRLong button) 3: WRLong diverter valves mounted on right FEL arm

 

[curly]

Well, I obviously don't have specific info on that Montana and I don't know if Montana has some special front remote set up option (I doubt it) so I imagine what they did was have the grapple hooked up to the rear remote. That is the simpliest solution costwise and as they did not plan to charge you for a diverter valve that must have been the set up.

As more than one set of rear remotes is a good thing generally and as you can always decide later to add an FEL diverter valve, I would (did) in your situation just order an extra set of rear remotes. If you go with the Kioti then you'd have the exact rear remote set up I do (photos). Two sets of remotes and two controller levers next to your right knee. One controller would be for the BH (it has a fixed indents so it will stay in position for BH use) and the second lever that does not lock into position which would make it ideal for running a grapple (you never really want to leave the grapple cylinder activated once you've opened or closed it...not good for the grapple or for the tractor hydraulics so better to use the spring loaded valve that doesn't accidently lock).

Photos show 1: two sets of rear remotes just above and to the left of the toplink. 2: rear remote controls next to FEL controller (which has WRLong button) 3: WRLong diverter valves mounted on right FEL arm

On the Montana they were going to charge me $540. I don't know what they did exactly. Adding a new valve to work the grapple...whatever that would entail.

 

[IslandTractor]

On the Montana they were going to charge me $540. I don't know what they did exactly. Adding a new valve to work the grapple...whatever that would entail.

They might charge $540 to install a second set of rear remotes and run hoses/fittings up to the FEL torque tube for use with the grapple. $540 sounds too cheap to be a dealer installed diverter valve. You can get the parts for the WRLong diverter valve kit for about that much but it takes several hours to install so that price seems too little.

You should look over the various threads debating the pros and cons of diverter valve vs rear remotes before you decide which way to go. The diverter valve will be a few hundred more to install compared to an extra remote plus the necessary hoses/couplers etc. As stated previously, both options work work well and have pros/cons.

 

[hill]

My new grapple is using an electrically operated solenoid valve that uses the power beyond outlet of my loader valve. It's completely plumbed at the front of the tractor as seen here:Valve Kits

That same loader PB connector continues on (now) from the grapple solenoid valve mounted directly beneath the loader valve to the backhoe, and then the entire circuit dumps back to tank by continuing on from the backhoe to the tank directly.

Whenever I remove the backhoe I plug the two hoses that go in and out of it together using quick disconnect couplings. (there's one male and one female on the backhoe and on the tractor so taking the backhoe out of loop and continuing the loop is as easy as plugging the hoses together). This is how my backhoe was set up when I bought the tractor - it's juice comes from the loader power beyond.

When I start with a top and tilt project in whatever form I decide on it'll be the backhoe loop that I'll power it from by breaking into the loop to put the T&T in place of the backhoe. They can't both be used at the same time - it's either backhow or 3PH, not both.

-------------------------

Imagine a circle of people all holding hands. If one person leaves the circle is closed by the remaining people joining hands. If a new person comes along any two let go and each of those takes one of the new person's hands to close the circle with a new member. This is tractor hydraulics.


****edit to add: The W.R. Long kit is not a diverter valve type system. In a diverter valve, or separator valve the fluid goes to one leg or the other but not both. So if fluid is taken from the bucket curl, for eample, the grapple cannot be operated at the same time that the bucket is curled. It's one, or it's the other. The W.R. Long example is called electric over hydraulic and it makes a new separate circuit for front hydraulic tool operation. If a grapple, the grapple CAN be operated at the same time as the bucket is curled or otherwise operated. They are separate systems.

As with all of these serial circuits it's first come first served, or the first tool in the circle out of the supply will operate first and most completely while the following tools may be slowed somewhat. They will be usable, but at a lower than normal speed or strength.

 

[curly]

They might charge $540 to install a second set of rear remotes and run hoses/fittings up to the FEL torque tube for use with the grapple. $540 sounds too cheap to be a dealer installed diverter valve. You can get the parts for the WRLong diverter valve kit for about that much but it takes several hours to install so that price seems too little...

It was WRLong and they were doing it for cost...they must really love that tractor, they keep adding money to it and they don't seem to want to sell it

 

[IslandTractor]

****edit to add: The W.R. Long kit is not a diverter valve type system. In a diverter valve, or separator valve the fluid goes to one leg or the other but not both. So if fluid is taken from the bucket curl, for eample, the grapple cannot be operated at the same time that the bucket is curled. It's one, or it's the other. The W.R. Long example is called electric over hydraulic and it makes a new separate circuit for front hydraulic tool operation. If a grapple, the grapple CAN be operated at the same time as the bucket is curled or otherwise operated. They are separate systems.

I am a little confused by your statement. The WRLong "diverter" does not allow curl/dump simultaneously with grapple open/shut. I have one. When you push the button on top of the FEL joystick it switches the control back and forth between those functions. Button pressed: moving joystick in closes grapple. Button not pressed, moving joystick in curls bucket. Maybe that is what you were stating but it sounded like the opposite to me. I am aware that with the type of set up you have you can do both dump/curl and grapple open/close simultaneously.

 

[curly]

I am a little confused by your statement...

Well...that's prolly cause I have no idear what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to relate back what they said to me in a hundred or so conversations. So, I probably have it all wrong.

But I do know they were going to order a hydralic valve (I think that's what they called it) from WRLong when they ordered the grapple. They may have done something entirely different.

So, what would they have done with a $540 valve (I guess s&h is part of that) from WRLong...that had to do with plumbing up that grapple. They definately need a cylindar to open and close the grapple, right?

So, I have no idea. The more I hear about the hydralic stuff, the less I seem to know. Maybe, once I get my tractor (whatever it ends up being), I can have someone walk around it with me and splain stuff