Grapple Hydralics

[curly]

OK, I'm looking at another tractor now that the Montana was pulled from under my feet

This tractor (Kioti DK40se) has one set of rear remotes. The dealership said they would run a hose from it to the front for my grapple and save me having to buy another valve for up front. He said I could plug into it when I needed the grapple and then if I wanted hydralic top link in the back...I could plug that into the remote. Just can't use them both at the same time.

Is this reasonable? Will I need to use the grapple with something else a lot...or will it seem to be one or the other?

Thanks,
Curly

 

[amigauser]

I think Islandtractor went the rear remote method and he seemed to be happy with it but I would pony up the $$ for the valve.

I have 2 rear remotes on my B3030 but I decided to have the WR Long 3rd Function valve installed when I purchased a grapple. It is a much cleaner install (you don't have 20 ft long hoses running from the rear remotes to the front of the tractor for one thing) and much more user friendly (the grapple control is on the same joystick handle as the FEL control so your right hand does not need to leave the joystick control) vs. having to move a separate lever for operation of a rear remote.

I also think it is safer because most advise on this board is to always have your right hand on the loader joystick when working with a load. You would not be able to do that when you are operating the grapple via a seperate rear remote lever of some sort. You also run the chance of that extra long hydraulic hose getting hung up on brush, trees, etc.

Just my 2 cents worth

Norm

 

[IslandTractor]

I've used both rear remotes (on my CK20) and now a WRLong diverter (on the DK40se). I like both. I'm still getting used to the diverter but it certainly works well. I find there is one annoying feature of the diverter which is that if I click the diverter button and move the joystick the grapple opens/closes fine but when I want the grapple to stop moving my natural reaction is to let go of the button....that leaves the FEL joystick active and so the grapple immediately does an unwanted dump or curl. Obviously I could prevent that by training myself to operate the grapple by only letting go of the switch when in the neutral position so I don't see that as a major issue just a training point.

I know people don't like the idea of using the rear remote because you have to drop your hand off the joystick. However, it is just as natural (once you get used to it...about 2 hrs work) as dropping your hand off the steering wheel of a car to shift gears. You don't even think about it and it is quite natural. The rear remote control on the DK40se is next to your right knee and just down from the FEL joystick so it would be quite natural to use that. I actually have a second set of remotes on mine and the second set has a slightly different controller just next to the first. The difference is that the first has indents so it will stay in position (for a BH) while the second is just spring loaded and returns to off when you let go.

Amigauser points out the long hoses that you need from the rear remotes to run under the seat/over the rear axle then under the floor, up the FEL post and down the FEL arm....sounds wierd I agree but it is actually trivial to do and takes about 10 minutes including ziptying it securely. total cost is just the cost of the hose and fittings. You'll need to buy about the same amount of hose and more fittings with the WRLong diverter so essentially the WR Long set up costs about $550 more than using the rear remotes and is a fair bit more complicated and time consuming to install.

Both systems work fine. I'd be happy with either. In my case the only reason I installed the diverter instead of going with the rear remotes again on my new tractor is that I got a "free" diverter when I won an eBay bid on a WR Long 4n1 bucket...it came with the diverter so I figured I might as well get it put on.

 

[curly]

So both ways are fine huh? The fact that I couldn't use the front and back together is not a big deal, right?

 

[BarryinMN]

I've had the single remote/grapple config for years. Dealer routed the hoses under the cab but well above the bottom of the tractor frame. Not a problem at all.

I generally close the grapple for positive containment particularly if something is near the tractor limits before moving. Don't want that rock rolling sideways in the bucket & rolling the tractor.

The other day I inadvertently knocked down a tree which blocked my road & picked it up in the bucket w/o grapple as I had a hyd dump trailer behind & plugged in.

Be certain the setup is not quick & cheap. Specify breakaway connectors out at the loader front end and the loader QT point so if you forget to pop the hoses off & back away especially from the grapple they simply pop out & no damage done. A good dealer knows this.

 

[curly]

I've had the single remote/grapple config for years. Dealer routed the hoses under the cab but well above the bottom of the tractor frame. Not a problem at all.

I generally close the grapple for positive containment particularly if something is near the tractor limits before moving. Don't want that rock rolling sideways in the bucket & rolling the tractor.

The other day I inadvertently knocked down a tree which blocked my road & picked it up in the bucket w/o grapple as I had a hyd dump trailer behind & plugged in.

Be certain the setup is not quick & cheap. Specify breakaway connectors out at the loader front end and the loader QT point so if you forget to pop the hoses off & back away especially from the grapple they simply pop out & no damage done. A good dealer knows this.

That's what I wanted to know, since I've never had a tractor...I wasn't sure what I may want to do similtaneously.

 

[IslandTractor]

That's what I wanted to know, since I've never had a tractor...I wasn't sure what I may want to do similtaneously.

An extra set of rear remotes is not too expensive (about $350-400 or so as I recall on the DK40se). On my first tractor I did switch back and forth from the grapple to the backhoe because I had only one set of remotes. There were a few times when I wanted to dig out a stump and then move it with the grapple so that was a bit of a pain....decided that two sets of remotes was a good investment but you can certainly operate a grapple with just one.

 

[hill]

If you decide that you want to operate two accessories with one hydraulic circuit you don't have to set it up to require plugging hoses in and out of each. There are selector valves that can switch from one to the other with the throw of a handle.

Seems to me though that it's as easy to go ahead and install remote circuits as it is to run hoses back and forth or use a selector.

 

[curly]

I guess if I'm gonna spend this much money I may as well get the extra set of remotes huh? So, do I just need the extra one up front (is it called a front remote?) since it's for the grapple anyway, and just keep the one in back?

 

[curly]

An extra set of rear remotes is not too expensive (about $350-400 or so as I recall on the DK40se). On my first tractor I did switch back and forth from the grapple to the backhoe because I had only one set of remotes. There were a few times when I wanted to dig out a stump and then move it with the grapple so that was a bit of a pain....decided that two sets of remotes was a good investment but you can certainly operate a grapple with just one.

Does your backhoe fit on the new machine also?

 

[IslandTractor]

I guess if I'm gonna spend this much money I may as well get the extra set of remotes huh? So, do I just need the extra one up front (is it called a front remote?) since it's for the grapple anyway, and just keep the one in back?

Although it would in theory be possible to rig up a set of front remotes, I haven't heard of anyone doing that on a CUT. Generally you would add a second set of rear remotes and then run hydraulic hose with appropriate fittings to the front in order to control the grapple. The main reason to have two sets of rear remotes is that there are some implements such as a top and tilt hydraulic toplink that require two rear remotes to operate. Most hydraulically operated equipment on CUTs, with the notable exceptions of a 4n1 bucket and grapple operate off rear remotes so extra remotes are generally ganged together in the rear. Factory kits to install extra remotes are virtually always plumbed as rear remotes so you'd have a little project on your hands to alter a kit for a front remote.

That said, there are many skid steer implements that do run off of front hydraulics so your question is quite reasonable. Many of the hydraulically run front skid steer attachments tend to require high flow rates that are rarely achievable with standard CUT hydraulic pumps so even if you had front remotes you could not run a front mounted hydraulic bush hog device for example. There are a few front mounted skid steer devices that could be run from a standard CUT such as a "tree lopper" (not sure what these are really called but they are essentially hydraulic scissors that cut saplings and even 8-10 inch trees off at ground level or can reach up to cut limbs). Again, don't get too excited about these front mounted skid steer devices unless you are a good fabricator as they are quite spendy.

Bottom line is that an extra set of rear remotes (two complete sets) can be quite useful and so long as your dealer doesn't gouge you, are not terribly expensive to add when you buy the tractor. You can buy the factory kit and add it yourself later too so it is not a now or never decision.

 

[IslandTractor]

Does your backhoe fit on the new machine also?

I traded my CK20 TLB (including backhoe) on the new DK40se and a new Woods BH90X backhoe which does run off one of the rear remotes.

 

[curly]

So, when they added the front hydralic valve on the Montana (that they decided to keep ), what did they do? Did they run it off of one of the sets of remotes on the back? Or was it completely seperate? I'm really confused now.

I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY what I need to ask the dealer when I request the up front valve...because I do want the spare one in the back. I don't have a backhoe...yet, but that may be a next year gift

On a sidebar:
When I do a dealer search, I get 5 dealers with the furthest of the 5 being 63 miles away. There may not be a ton of play in these CUTS but I may be able to get one of them to throw in the labor on the new valve and maybe give me a good price on pick-up and delivery if I have a problem.

 

[IslandTractor]

So, when they added the front hydralic valve on the Montana (that they decided to keep ), what did they do? Did they run it off of one of the sets of remotes on the back? Or was it completely seperate? I'm really confused now.

I'm trying to figure out EXACTLY what I need to ask the dealer when I request the up front valve...because I do want the spare one in the back. .

Well, I obviously don't have specific info on that Montana and I don't know if Montana has some special front remote set up option (I doubt it) so I imagine what they did was have the grapple hooked up to the rear remote. That is the simpliest solution costwise and as they did not plan to charge you for a diverter valve that must have been the set up.

As more than one set of rear remotes is a good thing generally and as you can always decide later to add an FEL diverter valve, I would (did) in your situation just order an extra set of rear remotes. If you go with the Kioti then you'd have the exact rear remote set up I do (photos). Two sets of remotes and two controller levers next to your right knee. One controller would be for the BH (it has a fixed indents so it will stay in position for BH use) and the second lever that does not lock into position which would make it ideal for running a grapple (you never really want to leave the grapple cylinder activated once you've opened or closed it...not good for the grapple or for the tractor hydraulics so better to use the spring loaded valve that doesn't accidently lock).

Photos show 1: two sets of rear remotes just above and to the left of the toplink. 2: rear remote controls next to FEL controller (which has WRLong button) 3: WRLong diverter valves mounted on right FEL arm

 

[curly]

Well, I obviously don't have specific info on that Montana and I don't know if Montana has some special front remote set up option (I doubt it) so I imagine what they did was have the grapple hooked up to the rear remote. That is the simpliest solution costwise and as they did not plan to charge you for a diverter valve that must have been the set up.

As more than one set of rear remotes is a good thing generally and as you can always decide later to add an FEL diverter valve, I would (did) in your situation just order an extra set of rear remotes. If you go with the Kioti then you'd have the exact rear remote set up I do (photos). Two sets of remotes and two controller levers next to your right knee. One controller would be for the BH (it has a fixed indents so it will stay in position for BH use) and the second lever that does not lock into position which would make it ideal for running a grapple (you never really want to leave the grapple cylinder activated once you've opened or closed it...not good for the grapple or for the tractor hydraulics so better to use the spring loaded valve that doesn't accidently lock).

Photos show 1: two sets of rear remotes just above and to the left of the toplink. 2: rear remote controls next to FEL controller (which has WRLong button) 3: WRLong diverter valves mounted on right FEL arm

On the Montana they were going to charge me $540. I don't know what they did exactly. Adding a new valve to work the grapple...whatever that would entail.

 

[IslandTractor]

On the Montana they were going to charge me $540. I don't know what they did exactly. Adding a new valve to work the grapple...whatever that would entail.

They might charge $540 to install a second set of rear remotes and run hoses/fittings up to the FEL torque tube for use with the grapple. $540 sounds too cheap to be a dealer installed diverter valve. You can get the parts for the WRLong diverter valve kit for about that much but it takes several hours to install so that price seems too little.

You should look over the various threads debating the pros and cons of diverter valve vs rear remotes before you decide which way to go. The diverter valve will be a few hundred more to install compared to an extra remote plus the necessary hoses/couplers etc. As stated previously, both options work work well and have pros/cons.

 

[hill]

My new grapple is using an electrically operated solenoid valve that uses the power beyond outlet of my loader valve. It's completely plumbed at the front of the tractor as seen here:Valve Kits

That same loader PB connector continues on (now) from the grapple solenoid valve mounted directly beneath the loader valve to the backhoe, and then the entire circuit dumps back to tank by continuing on from the backhoe to the tank directly.

Whenever I remove the backhoe I plug the two hoses that go in and out of it together using quick disconnect couplings. (there's one male and one female on the backhoe and on the tractor so taking the backhoe out of loop and continuing the loop is as easy as plugging the hoses together). This is how my backhoe was set up when I bought the tractor - it's juice comes from the loader power beyond.

When I start with a top and tilt project in whatever form I decide on it'll be the backhoe loop that I'll power it from by breaking into the loop to put the T&T in place of the backhoe. They can't both be used at the same time - it's either backhow or 3PH, not both.

-------------------------

Imagine a circle of people all holding hands. If one person leaves the circle is closed by the remaining people joining hands. If a new person comes along any two let go and each of those takes one of the new person's hands to close the circle with a new member. This is tractor hydraulics.


****edit to add: The W.R. Long kit is not a diverter valve type system. In a diverter valve, or separator valve the fluid goes to one leg or the other but not both. So if fluid is taken from the bucket curl, for eample, the grapple cannot be operated at the same time that the bucket is curled. It's one, or it's the other. The W.R. Long example is called electric over hydraulic and it makes a new separate circuit for front hydraulic tool operation. If a grapple, the grapple CAN be operated at the same time as the bucket is curled or otherwise operated. They are separate systems.

As with all of these serial circuits it's first come first served, or the first tool in the circle out of the supply will operate first and most completely while the following tools may be slowed somewhat. They will be usable, but at a lower than normal speed or strength.

 

[curly]

They might charge $540 to install a second set of rear remotes and run hoses/fittings up to the FEL torque tube for use with the grapple. $540 sounds too cheap to be a dealer installed diverter valve. You can get the parts for the WRLong diverter valve kit for about that much but it takes several hours to install so that price seems too little...

It was WRLong and they were doing it for cost...they must really love that tractor, they keep adding money to it and they don't seem to want to sell it

 

[IslandTractor]

****edit to add: The W.R. Long kit is not a diverter valve type system. In a diverter valve, or separator valve the fluid goes to one leg or the other but not both. So if fluid is taken from the bucket curl, for eample, the grapple cannot be operated at the same time that the bucket is curled. It's one, or it's the other. The W.R. Long example is called electric over hydraulic and it makes a new separate circuit for front hydraulic tool operation. If a grapple, the grapple CAN be operated at the same time as the bucket is curled or otherwise operated. They are separate systems.

I am a little confused by your statement. The WRLong "diverter" does not allow curl/dump simultaneously with grapple open/shut. I have one. When you push the button on top of the FEL joystick it switches the control back and forth between those functions. Button pressed: moving joystick in closes grapple. Button not pressed, moving joystick in curls bucket. Maybe that is what you were stating but it sounded like the opposite to me. I am aware that with the type of set up you have you can do both dump/curl and grapple open/close simultaneously.

 

[curly]

I am a little confused by your statement...

Well...that's prolly cause I have no idear what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to relate back what they said to me in a hundred or so conversations. So, I probably have it all wrong.

But I do know they were going to order a hydralic valve (I think that's what they called it) from WRLong when they ordered the grapple. They may have done something entirely different.

So, what would they have done with a $540 valve (I guess s&h is part of that) from WRLong...that had to do with plumbing up that grapple. They definately need a cylindar to open and close the grapple, right?

So, I have no idea. The more I hear about the hydralic stuff, the less I seem to know. Maybe, once I get my tractor (whatever it ends up being), I can have someone walk around it with me and splain stuff