Grillo vs BCS

[jomifo]

I own a BCS 852 (which is essentially the same as an 853). I use it for sickling the pastures for hay, finishing mowing around the house, snow blowing, occasional mowing with the brush mower, and tilling. I used to use it for pulling a trailer, but have since goten an ATV which is better suited for that task.

This echos what's already been said by farmboybill about the Grillo being better suited for mowing, but I thought I would add my personal experience as well-

Although I use my BCS for tilling and snow blowing, the majority of the hours I put on it are mowing, either sickling or finish mowing, and I often wish, while walking behind the sickle in a 3 acre pasture or mowing the acre house lot, that the machine could go faster. I bought my machine used so didn't really have the option between Grillo and BCS, but if I were to buy it new I would probably favor the Grillo for its faster top gear.

Doesn't sound like your use scenario includes quite as much mowing as mine. Maybe the faster top gear of the Grillo would benefit you with flailing or trailing, maybe not, just thought I would share my experiences just in case it helps you.

 

[wstr75]

Jomifo, you can speed up your 852 with a larger diameter wheel/tire combination. My 853 has the optional 12 x 6.5 wheel/tire combination and it moves at a good walking pace in 2nd gear and at a fast walking pace in 3rd gear. My 737 has the standard 10 inch wheels and is considerably slower with its 3rd gear speed about the same as the larger wheeled tractor's 2nd gear speed.

Scroll down this page to see paragraph about wheels and tires. While on this page, also see picture of 853 with 5 x 12 tires.
http://www.earthtoolsbcs.com/html/tractor_prices.html

Bill in NC

 

[jomifo]

Bill in NC-
Thanks for the tip. Larger wheels/tires is something to consider to get the speed up. Although, the cost-benefit ratio is a bit too high for me. Maybe if my current tires ever wear out, it would be worth considering getting the larger ones.

 

[Coloradoan]

Just like Bill in NC I used the tire size for permanent speed adjustments.

My BCS 852 has the 6.5x12x23s. Better ground clearance and an increase in outside track were the other reasons for the optional larger wheels.

The table below helped me to make up my mind about the configuration:

BCS 852/853 ... 5x10x20 5x12x22 6.5x12x23
Circumference ... 62.8 .... 69.1 .... 72.2
Outside track .... 25" ...... 25" ..... 28"
Speed increase .. 0% ..... 10% .... 15%
Speed work 1 .... 0.7 ..... 0.8 ...... 0.8
Speed work 2 .... 1.7 ..... 1.9 ...... 2.0
Speed work 3 .... 2.7 ..... 3.0 ...... 3.1
Speed transport . 8.3 ..... 9.1 ...... 9.5

(I hope this is the right version of my spreadsheet. I remember having to fix my calculations because of a dumb error.)

The 15% increase in working speed over the standard wheel/tire combo seemed a better choice for mowing our property. I haven't tried yet running behind the tractor at 9.5 miles/hour in transport speed. If I ever do I'll have my wife take moving pictures for the Guinness Book (and the New Video section).

P.S. I should mention that the basic data and other hands on know how that helped me decide came from Joel Dufour of Earth Tools where I bought the machine; I also read everything I could find on this forum. Thanks to everyone!

 

[westva]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have the Grillo 107D now with the Berta rotary plow. The weather has kept me from putting in too many hours yet but when once I have and am better able to form a proper opinion of the machine, I will let you all know.

Out of the gate, I am having a little trouble shifting gears and engaging the PTO but maybe things will loosen up after a few more hours breaking her in.

-brian

 

[Coloradoan]

Hi Brian,

What engine did you settle on and what size wheels?

 

[5030]

I have my doubts that it will be cost effective to burn petroleum in 50 (or 10) years. Which always leads me back to the diesel.

Gee.. Diesel is petroleum as well. Diesels will give way to other fuels like NG in the near future. Diesel, like gasoline, has long term storage issues too.

 

[farmerboybill]

Hey 5030,

Diesel engines can run on straight vegetable oil if it is warmed up. Gasoline engines can run on alcohol(ethanol), but the process of making alcohol at the proper "octane" is much more involved than squeezing a soybean or sunflower seed.

Most things that run on NG are stationary - home heating, generators, power plants. You're not likely to see mobile NG small engines being commonly used in the very near future.

 

[Coloradoan]

I think Bill's right about small engines and NG.

My F250---hidden under the "mound" in the profile picture---runs on propane and it has for decades since the first owner put in the conversion. The tank takes up 2 ft of the bed length. Then there is the evaporator that has to be heated by the engine coolant, with all the hoses required. In warm weather it starts straight on propane but other times it has to warm up on gasoline first because the evaporator would freeze up. The substantial cost of the extra gear has to be considered for real world practicality, too.

A setup like that would work on a bigger tractor but not on a little BCS. I know some people way smarter than me working on all kind of fancy stuff with alternative fuels but I have not seen anything yet that's a real option. Burning vegetable oil in a diesel comes the closest, I guess, and that's not new either. Rudolf Diesel's prototypes ran on peanut oil.

 

[5030]

Hey 5030,

Diesel engines can run on straight vegetable oil if it is warmed up. Gasoline engines can run on alcohol(ethanol), but the process of making alcohol at the proper "octane" is much more involved than squeezing a soybean or sunflower seed.

Most things that run on NG are stationary - home heating, generators, power plants. You're not likely to see mobile NG small engines being commonly used in the very near future.

I'm not referring to single cylinder small diesel engines. ..... And they are already here. Cummins, DDEC, Cat and I believe Volvo all produce NG fired engines. It's only a matter of time before they show up in truck chassis.

Diesels can't get much cleaner (particulate wise). Even with the advanced, complicated and expensive to buy and maintain urea injection systems and EGR, diesels are still having problems meeting the imposed Tier 4 emissions standards plus they are getting unreliable because the inherent heat from the reburn is hard to get rid of. While a diesel is a heat engine, too much excess heat destroys parts and breaks down lubricating oil. Modern diesels have quite a few ceramic parts now (because of the heat). One reason Cat got out of the on-road engine market. You can't build a reliable, million mile, emissions compliant diesel engine. You can, however, build a reliable NG fired engine that meets or exceeds Tier 4 emission standards.

It's like catalytic convertors on lawnmowers. At some point, the trickle down effect will be in small engines as well, as the technology advances.....

 

[oldmech]

Hi! Kubota makes small Diesel engines. OC60-E3 and OC95-E3 These engine complies with EPA Tier 4 emission regulation . The most stringent emission regulation in the world. But these engines are very expensive. Also Soon ( less 50 years)! No more pollution because no more oil to burn. Good Luck! Oldmech

 

[farmerboybill]

Hey 5030,

This thread directly relates to small gasoline or diesel engines on a BCS or Grillo walk-behind tractors. As far as I know, there is no factory-built, mass produced, affordable engine that is powered by NG and can be mounted to Lawn and garden equipment. As far as I know, there is no readily available source to fill up a tank of NG that would be practical on a small machine.

As I said, you won't see them COMMONLY used in the near future. My town had police cars that ran on NG 15 years ago. They don't anymore. Most NG powered items are stationary and will continue to be stationary for at least the next decade. You're not likely to see a NG on an OTR truck in the next 20 years. For that to happen, truck stops will need to install NG pumps and man the pumps with personnel to fill the tanks. You might see them in short haul delivery trucks that return to their terminal every night and can be fueled then in the next ten years, but not OTR trucks. For example, Schwan's trucks are all LP powered.

Besides that, NG has it's own demons when it comes to extraction. Man-made earthquakes, to name one. The crap we pump in the ground during fracing to name another.

I'd rather run veggie oil in a little less "efficient" diesel engine on a BCS or Grillo versus NG.

 

[5030]

I take it you haven't been to any new, under construction truckstops lately. Love's and Flying J are both incorporating NG filling and DEF filling stations in their pump lines.

Unattending filling of NG tanks (by customers) is very simple with OPD equipment. Pre-OPD was a risky operation. OPD filling removes the risk factor.

I work in the industry and it's coming.....

I realize what the thread topic addresses.

 

[clytle374]

I hope diesel is around for good long while. Getting really tired of emission standards on small engines, while ships moving all the cheap goods from higher pollution factories in China don't have to worry about it much.

Speaking of storage issues, I can't exactly store it in a trash bag. Am I going to get small 5gal tanks to refill the tractor ever 30 minutes? Or have 6 times the size tank? Or will I have to take it to a OPD station?

Not to mention all the debate with fracking, and the fact that if previous usage goes back to pre recession levels, it won't be so cheap.

And with the concern about CO2 being so prevalent, it's a doomed as all other fuels.

 

[SharingFarm]

Would like some advice on the Grillo G107D. There are 2 engines for this one with a significant price difference. The 11hp Honda version and the 8hp Kohler/Lombardini Diesel. For power, reliability, lower maintenance, and repair, which engine would you choose?

Also, is there a Canadian distributor for the Grillo?

Thanks,

 

[Bentleg]

Hi. Joel's list includes 4 dealers in Canada. http://www.earthtoolsbcs.com/Grillo_dealer_list_April_2013.pdf

I'd go with the diesel with a electricity generator in mind.

 

[farmerboybill]

Hi Sharingfarm,

The Honda powered unit is surely the best bang for your buck. If there were a 9 or 9.5 hp diesel option to mount on the 107, it'd be the better engine in terms of maximum power. I've only sold one diesel in three year and that was because the customer insisted.

 

[mkeith]

Would like some advice on the Grillo G107D. There are 2 engines for this one with a significant price difference. The 11hp Honda version and the 8hp Kohler/Lombardini Diesel. For power, reliability, lower maintenance, and repair, which engine would you choose?

Also, is there a Canadian distributor for the Grillo?

Thanks,

Those Honda motors have a very good reputation and are used in many types of equipment. Maintenance and repair should not be a problem. I know I would buy the Honda. If you use your tractor enough, the diesel can eventually pay for itself in fuel savings (according to the Earth Tools website). I'm sure the diesel is reliable, too. But there are WAY more Honda's out there floating around. I think maintenance should be about equal, but I'm not sure.

I gather that the biggest problem with small gas engines is gummed up carburetor. A lot of people don't add fuel stabilizer, then let it sit for many months during the winter, year after year. Then the fuel gums up the carburetor. If you add stabilizer, and use the equipment regularly, I don't believe you will have any problem with the carburetor.

--McKenzie

 

[oldmech]

Hi! Gas or diesel. If you plan use less 200 hrs year. Take Honda 11hp. I Have a Grillo 107d with Honda take about 2 liters hour. My BCS diesel 735 with 8hp diesel about 1 liter hour. I use the Grillo in winter with snowblower. For long job in summer I take the Diesel because I have this one. Small diesel are too expensive to buy You need 1000 hours for pay . Good luck Oldmech

 

[wstr75]

I agree with Farmerboybill, MKeith and Oldmech. I have an 853 with 11 hp Lombardini (now Kohler), a 737 with 13 hp Honda and a 710 with 8 hp Honda. The Lombardini is almost unstoppable. It is also very loud. The Hondas are quiet, reliable and if you run fuel stabilizer, slide the fuel control to "off" and idle the engine until the carburetor is out of fuel (when the engine dies), they never give any maintenance trouble.
Bill in NC