Ground Issues?

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

I have a Branson 3120R that I thought was having starter issues. Bought it used, had a few hammer marks on the starter from previous owner. Everything worked well for quite a while but then one day I shut if off and it would not restart. Lights on dash would come on with key in "on" position but all would go dead when turning the key to the start position. Checked battery, it was good. Pulled starter, bench tested it, it was good. Put starter back in and had the same issue. New starter is $500, so I took my starter in to starter shop. They said it looked great and tested out 'good'. I ran over the scenario with them and they suggested looking for a ground issue. Put the starter back in to the same problem. Put a meter on the battery and at the starter and when you would try to start the voltage would drop to '0'. After much frustration working my way through the electrical system, I skipped over the factory ignition switch and installed a stand alone starter button to get me up and running again which worked for a couple months... Nephew stalled the tractor yesterday and now we are back to square one with all the same symptoms, but now it is happening even when using the stand alone starter switch. Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

 

[Midniteoyl]

You very well could have a ground problem as advised. There was a while when some manufacturers used cables prone to corrosion inside the insulation, so best to start there. Remove the ground wire from the battery and jumper from the battery's negative to engine/frame with a jumper cable and try again. If it starts, clean and inspect the ground cable. You might have to replace it.

 

[MasseyFerg231]

Bad relay??

 

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

You very well could have a ground problem as advised. There was a while when some manufacturers used cables prone to corrosion inside the insulation, so best to start there. Remove the ground wire from the battery and jumper from the battery's negative to engine/frame with a jumper cable and try again. If it starts, clean and inspect the ground cable. You might have to replace it.

I'll check that out to see. I did try to jump negative from the battery to the starter housing with no luck, but something has to be creating a short to ground and robbing all the power. Thank you

 

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

Bad relay??

I thought that too. Replaced them already, no luck. Checked all fuses and replaced both fuseable links. Thank you for your help.

 

[jaxs]

I'll check that out to see. I did try to jump negative from the battery to the starter housing with no luck, but something has to be creating a short to ground and robbing all the power. Thank you

Despite references to ground as a possible problem, positive cable can and often does the same way. Jump from positive post to lug on starter where positive cable connects. CARFUL ,this procedure by-passes all safty features so if tractor is in gear it can run over you when engine turns over.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Try this in order using meter, making sure tractor in neutral, brake on.
1) meter across battery, should be about 12.5 volts. _________?
2) meter across battery in crank position. ________?
3) leave meter -- negative lead on battery. Positive lead on starter case. Should be zero volts, off & cranking. _________?
4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. ________?

 

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

Try this in order using meter, making sure tractor in neutral, brake on.
1) meter across battery, should be about 12.5 volts. _________?
2) meter across battery in crank position. ________?
3) leave meter -- negative lead on battery. Positive lead on starter case. Should be zero volts, off & cranking. _________?
4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. ________?

1) meter across battery, should be about 12.5 volts. ___12.78
2) meter across battery in crank position. __12.75
3) leave meter -- negative lead on battery. Positive lead on starter case. Should be zero volts, off & cranking. off 0 crank 0
4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. off 0, ignition in on position 3.49, crank 12.43

 

[Fuddy1952]

1 through 3 are OK. 12.78v means really good battery. 2) is OK since starter isn't cranking (should be roughly 10 to 11 volts while cranking.
"4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. off 0, ignition in on position 3.49, crank 12.43"
Your battery + positive cable goes to solenoid big terminal, other solenoid big terminal goes to starter. When cranking the solenoid small terminal gets power which engages solenoid so starter gets power.
If you use a jumper cable battery + positive to solenoid big terminal and it cranks normally...you need to replace battery to solenoid cable since you just bypassed it.
If you jumper battery positive to other side of solenoid which goes to starter it should crank. (Careful...it will spark...lots of current there, but it's just a quick test). If it doesn't crank, try at starter itself. If it does crank, replace this cable solenoid to starter since you just bypassed it.
Step 4) getting voltage from battery positive to solenoid & starter proves you have a bad cable or solenoid. NOW...meter negative lead on ground you SHOULD measure 12 volts battery side of solenoid and small terminal and at starter when cranking.

 

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

1 through 3 are OK. 12.78v means really good battery. 2) is OK since starter isn't cranking (should be roughly 10 to 11 volts while cranking.
"4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. off 0, ignition in on position 3.49, crank 12.43"
Your battery + positive cable goes to solenoid big terminal, other solenoid big terminal goes to starter. When cranking the solenoid small terminal gets power which engages solenoid so starter gets power.
If you use a jumper cable battery + positive to solenoid big terminal and it cranks normally...you need to replace battery to solenoid cable since you just bypassed it.
If you jumper battery positive to other side of solenoid which goes to starter it should crank. (Careful...it will spark...lots of current there, but it's just a quick test). If it doesn't crank, try at starter itself. If it does crank, replace this cable solenoid to starter since you just bypassed it.
Step 4) getting voltage from battery positive to solenoid & starter proves you have a bad cable or solenoid. NOW...meter negative lead on ground you SHOULD measure 12 volts battery side of solenoid and small terminal and at starter when cranking.

Fuddy1952, thank you very much for your time and help. I greatly appreciate it. I will give it a go in the morning.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

I had a car which would do something similar. Except it was intermittent.

Everything would work fine and then the starter would quit working. Pull it out take it to the parts store, and have them check it and everything would work fine. Put it back in, and it would work fine for a few weeks and then quit working. Tested and replaced ignition, starter relay, Added, a braided copper ground direct from the frame to one of the bolts holding the starter, and one from the battery negative directly to the same frame rail.

Kept happening. Finally bought a new starter, and put it in. Decided to tear open the old one before I took it back for the core charge. There was one wire, loose on one end, which I could see had been arcing. If it was lined up right, everything worked fine. Hit a bump, it moved and lost contact. The act of pulling the starter out to check it on the bench had been enough to get it working and testing good.

 

[jaxs]

Because of those hammer marks,I'm going in a different direction and hopfully you don't find it difficult. If the latest electrical tests don't turn up anything,look at this. When the starter was off,you noticed a gear and spring apparatus (Bendix). The gear might be stuck engaged with flywheel ring gear. If there's an inspection plate that alow's viewing, that's the easy way to check. If there is no hole where Bendix can be seen,loosen bolts holding starter in place, move and shake starter,retighten bolts and try starter. CAUTION,do not apply power to starter while bolts are loose. If bolts are difficult to access, here's a different approach. With ignition switch off,put tractor in high gear then rock tractor by pushing-pulling a rear tire. It need's to be rocked hard enough so that cooling fan can be seen moving. Follow that with trying to start. If this make's the difference,you might replace the Bendix without replacing starter motor. Otherwise, you will know how to get it going next time.

 

[Fuddy1952]

It's a simple test: "4) now meter positive + lead on battery positive +. Negative lead on starter terminal.
Should be zero volts off & cranking. off 0, ignition in on position 3.49, crank 12.43"

From battery + he's measuring a voltage drop from there to starter. When solenoid is engaged then battery + goes through it to starter motor.
Voltage drop means bad cable, connection (corrosion) or solenoid.

 

[Jon@HannenFamilyFarm]

Thank you to everyone for your help. It is now up and running as it should be...

For future reference, ALWAYS CHECK YOUR CONNECTIONS! (and I open myself up to public ridicule, it is well deserved)

Long story short, it ended up being the new ground terminal on battery that was not clean (had black paint on the inside). Because it was a brand new terminal, I overlooked making sure it was clean and making good contact!

 

[Fuddy1952]