Grounding a Tin Roof

/ Grounding a Tin Roof #21  
There were rods on my Granddad's barn that didn't have any connection to the ground. That barn has weathered 5 generations worth of storms with nary a problem. However at least two houses have burned due to lightning strikes nearby.
The lightning may not bother the house, but it looks as if teen aged boys are gonna strike that yard pretty soon. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #22  
Just saw this in the morning paper regarding lightning protection. It is interesting that the NFPA has standards on this issue.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/nc/wake/cary/story/1275623p-7397317c.html

NFPA has a book, http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product.asp?pid=78000&query=lightning&link%5Ftype=search&src=nfpa on the subject, it is $32.25 and it is NFPA 780.

I just found this reference for boats. Its very interesting.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001-d000100/d000007/d000007.html

Same site as the last one but for the "farm."
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001001-d001100/d001010/d001010.html

Anyone have access to this book and can give some insight?

The first article mentions spending $80 to protect a house.

Later,
Dan
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #23  
I can access NFPA780 online, but I have a meeting this morning. I will try to look at it later today.
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #24  
Any idea what the cost is to have a professional install 5 or 6 lighning rods?
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #25  
rwinter

You might want to start a new thread too this one is over 5 years old till your post.

I'm an electrician and don't see why you would want any thing to draw lightning to your building this is only my opinion of lightning rods.


tom
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #26  
My tin roof is grounded. I have tin gutters and downspouts. There is a stainless steel strap from the roof to the gutter, and then at the ground I use another strap held by a hose clamp to go "tin" (really zinc and tin) to stainless, and then stainless to copper for the ground run.

When building the house, I put in lots of copper around the house at foundation level and about 600' in four trenches that had other stuff at the 2.5 foot level, so that's my grounding system.

I claim that your metal roof and the earth all look like ground to any pending strike, so that grounding it doesn't really change the odds you'll be struck. What it does do is give a path for the charge to go to ground. Don't know if this is better than a "real" system with sharp pointed things in the air, but it has to be better than nothing. I've seen lots of houses that have been struck by lightning with results for nothing to burned down. This was an easy thing to do that substantially increases my ability to survive a lightning strike.

Driving in ground rods is not difficult, it's just hard work. You can get the rods and the #6 wire from big box stores. The biggest thing to avoid is a direct copper to tin connection. The tin will corrode. I also go around the house and hit the" tin 2 stainless 2 copper" areas with some WD-40 about twice a year to keep the water out and to inspect for any problems.
 

Attachments

  • cu_2_sn.jpg
    cu_2_sn.jpg
    244.2 KB · Views: 179
  • metal_gutters.jpg
    metal_gutters.jpg
    179.8 KB · Views: 285
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #27  
In older residences that have cast iron plumbing (waste) lines where the vent stacks penetratin the roof pose the biggest attraction for lightning strikes because they offer a solid ground...

I would think that a metal (cunductive) roof would dissipate the the energy of a lightning stirke similar to the way it is dissipated when a sailing vessel is struck...I would guess that grounding does very little to protect against a strike...
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #28  
/pine is right. The concept of "protecting against being struck" can only exist in the mind of a salesperson. All of this is about dissipating the energy _when_ you get struck.

And speaking of sailing, when you've got that trench open or ground rod pounded in, add a sacrificial anode (hunk of zinc) in there for good measure. You can get that at a boat shop.

Pete
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #29  
As a ham I've spent quite a bit of time researching lightning protection for my two 72' towers. There is no such thing as preventing a strike - spikes and other widgets to 'dissipate static in the air before a strike can happen' are useless. As others have said it's all about routing the _bulk_ of the lightning where you want it to go.

I say 'bulk' because lightning is electricity and if multiple paths to ground are available it will take ALL of them - just in varying degrees of current depending on how good of a conductor it is. It sees the path to ground as a bunch of parallel paths - it takes them all! Even if you have the fattest of cables to ground you will still get a tickle on smaller cables (satellite feeds, outside antennas, etc.) because they present yet another path to ground - thru your house and equipment.

Lightning is also an AC waveform which means it is very much like radio. And it prefers to travel on the 'skin' of a conductor - believe it or not a wide strap is better than a big fat cable - more surface area. Also, the route to ground should not have sharp bends or curves. These present an 'impedence bump' to lightning and not as much of the energy will take that path - MORE will appear on other paths. And this all if you get a direct hit. God help you.

Just as big a concern is induced voltage from nearby strikes. Anything metallic gets energized and conducts to ... whatever it's attached to.

For the most part, surge-suppressor outlet strips don't do much because they can't react fast enough and they rely on the ground in your house - a small, thin wire with lots of curves and bends. You typically don't see a whole lot of damage to phones simply because the telco wires are so small. Electrical appliances can get more of an induced jolt because the wires are thicker. This is why you really should unplug sensitive electronics when a storm approaches. If you hear thunder now, don't touch anything!

Already wrote too much. Be careful!

-Brian
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #30  
i've had an ungrounded steel roof (not tin) on my house for 10+ years now. there have been some nearby lightning strikes that have done various amounts of damage but no structural damage to my house. The worst was when I had an AC fence charger in the basement and a nearby strike blew it across the basement floor and knocked out a few of my electric circuits as well as doing some computer damage. The AC fence charger is in a different building now. the lightning 'liked' the fence charger because there was a good ground.
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #31  
i've had an ungrounded steel roof (not tin) on my house for 10+ years now. there have been some nearby lightning strikes that have done various amounts of damage but no structural damage to my house. The worst was when I had an AC fence charger in the basement and a nearby strike blew it across the basement floor and knocked out a few of my electric circuits as well as doing some computer damage. The AC fence charger is in a different building now. the lightning 'liked' the fence charger because there was a good ground.

Usually the fence acts like an antenna and routs the strike to fence charger and the shortest path to ground.

tom
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #32  
Hey to N8WRL from WA1YYN !

All this stuff is interesting to me because of amateur radio stuff, being an electrical engineer and having to do too much work with metallic pair (coper wire) protection stuff, and being a volunteer firefighter and thus having seen the high cost of failure. So merging these areas produces psychotic split on bad days, and OK results on good days.

I view lightning events as one of three flavors: Tickle, Slap, and Kick. The Tickle is what you see on your TV and hear on the phone. It can easily be dealt with via suppression devices on your AC and telephone. The Slap is a very near by strike. I had one of these when generator was running and it blew out a protector on the start relay. If the protector hadn't been there, the entire generator control circuit would have been fried. This can also be where a tree close to your house gets hit, and you blow up a few appliances. Some of that is caused by ground getting kicked around (called "ground bounce"), and some by picking up energy. This is the every wire (including fences) is an antenna and there's a lot of energy in the RF (radio frequency) range with lightning. Whole house suppressors and a good ground can help a lot. If you are relying on the telephone company's gas tube protectors for these, you will loose- you need additional solid state protectors of the type found in some of the surge protector strips.
These surge protector strips are only as good as the ground system in your house. If you've got the weenie 4' copper plated ground rod that the telco's put into disturbed soil under your eave (i.e.dry) then you're gonna loose. If you've added 2-3 ground rounds, and maybe even put one where the gutter dumps out so it's wet then you've got a much better ground and might win. The biggest reason I put all 20 amp outlet circuits in the new house was for the better ground. I have about 1200 feet of copper in the ground for my ground system, some have accused me of overkill.
The only thing I've lost to lightning in 20+ years is a telephone PBX. It was in 2002, and we had an incredible drought in NC. The nearby strike that took out the generator start relay fried the PBX. I attribute this to dry ground making my ground system less effective, which is why I have such a large ground at the new house.

That leaves the Kick. This is a direct strike either on your house or onto any utility drops going to your house. The definition of surviving a Kick is that your house doesn't burn down. You might fry a lot of electronics, but that's what insurance is for. So things you do to survive getting Kicked are:
1) Try to get the AC into your house so it's buried. Yes, you can have a strike at the pole but if it's real bad it will blast out of the cable in the ground and you won't get the full brunt of the strike. Your whole house protector will sacrifice itself to save your house.
2) Try to get the phone line into your house buried. Same idea. My phone line is buried 5 feet deep and is in conduit. It's a 800 foot run. It's that deep because the gophers only go about 2-3 feet deep and because I have a backhoe (had to tie this back into tractors somehow). It's also buried at the street. The conduit give me over 10KV of isolation, and even on a typical ground strike you don't typically see that much voltage that deep. Did I mention my love of overkill?
3) Figure out how a strike on the roof will get to ground. A metal roof makes this a bit easier. I've seen 3 houses with asphalt shingles that got struck and the lightning went around and found the vinyl coated aluminum facia. It ran around the house and found the coax for the satellite antenna and followed it to the grounding block. The coax was vaporized. All three houses had lots of internal appliance damage, but none burned. Houses that burn had the lightning find it's way inside and then it was on.
Note that protection is a divide and conquer approach. You put the bulk to ground, some gets in, you may have secondary protection to deal with that, and then the end device might have some protection.

So we've seen tips on grounding a metal roof, the OP's concern. I'd add to those idea the possibility of adding a few ground rods out in undisturbed soil near a down spout if you can. Put your satellite dish on a pole in the ground. Get a whole house surge protector.

I apologize for the long post. This is something I'm passionate about (or crazy about, depending on your perspective). The science behind the nature of lightning is as well understood as economics, batteries, and women. So I've focused on real things that anyone can do. Since a strike can be as small as 2000 amps and as large as 500,000 amps, there are no guarantees. The last piece of any lightning protection plan is insurance.

I end with all the normal disclaimers and statements that your millage may vary, there's no promise any of this will work, consult a professional for your particular situation, and please don't be part of the problem and sue me if something goes wrong and you're unhappy.

Pete
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #33  
Hi WA1YYN!

Great info. I too have been accused of overkill. I have 3 additional 8' ground rods in an 8' triangle bonded to the silly 4-footer the electrician installed. Those are bonded via buried, #0 solid to another 3 in a similar configuration under the crawlspace where the cabling goes thru the floor to my shack.

Tower #1 is 175' from the house, so i have control cables, coax, and more #0 bonded to the house ground out to the tower ground. 8' rods every 16' in the trench. The base of the tower is surrounded by 6 32' spokes of #0 bonded to 8' ground rods every 16 feet (3 rods per spoke). Also bonded to each of the 3 tower legs.

Tower #2 is 200' from tower #1 with a similar arrangement, trench, etc. So that's a total of >50 ground rods. Some have questioned whether it was wise to bond the grounds of the house to the towers so far away but the RF ground is fantastic and I haven't even experienced a tickle. Sometimes we do hear the odd 'sizzle' from the yagi's from a nearby strike but nothing in the house (knocking on wood).

20 years ago when we lived in MI I had only wire antennas criss-crossing my 4 acre lot with good grounds. My next-door neighbor had a direct hit on a 10' basket-ball net. The thing lifted out of the ground. Then the stroke went thru the rebar in his driveway, literally blowing the dirt out of the cracks in the cement. It proceeded to go thru his garage floor into the house wiring and finally down his well. Most electronics and his well motor were toast.

I am under no illusions that my wires or grounding prowess or anything other than luck saved us.

So we do what we can, keep the insurance paid up and hope!

73!

-Brian n8wrl
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #34  
@N8WRL: No towers here (yet). Like your grounding! I have similar stories of neighbors that keep getting nuked and I'm OK. Some of that is luck, most of that is grounding and protection.

Pete
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #35  
Would it make sense to attach a #2 copper or Alum wire to the corner of the roof and attach to a ground rod?

I knew a guy that installed lighting arrestor systems. you know all the little (or not so little) spikes and cable to connect them to ground.

as it was said earlyer lighting likes to travel on the surface of a cable. He showed me some of the old school stuff once.

weirdest cable i ever saw. looked like 14awg wires wrapped in a braded spiral pattern and was hollow. made maximum use of the surface area of the like 6-8 wires that made up the cable.
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #36  
Hi WA1YYN!

Tower #1 is 175' from the house, so i have control cables, coax, and more #0 bonded to the house ground out to the tower ground. 8' rods every 16' in the trench. The base of the tower is surrounded by 6 32' spokes of #0 bonded to 8' ground rods every 16 feet (3 rods per spoke). Also bonded to each of the 3 tower legs.

Overall I fall into the camp of the more extensive the grounding the better. But looking at your grounding from a strictly RF grounding perspective, the radiating spokes bonded to the base of your tower is excellent; the grounding system between the tower and the house is of little value.
 
/ Grounding a Tin Roof #37  
skent, I salvaged the entire lightning rod system from a barn I took down near my home. I subsequently rebuilt the barn at my vacation/retirement home. I have not installed the lightning rods yet and may not. The original barn was in an area of frequent lightning strikes. In fact the new home that was put up 100' away from the barn site has been struck 3 times in 4 years. The builder is having a hard time selling that house??? The barn may have been hit but sustained no harm in the 45 years it stood there. The barn's new location has very tall pines on the north & west, some of which show lightning damage but no barn damage since erected in 2002.

Don't know it you are aware that there is a specific electrical code for lightning rod installation. If grounding your roof ins not in compliance with the code your insurance may not pay if you have a strike. Check the code and with your insurance company before you run any wire. MikeD74T
 

Marketplace Items

Kubota B2301 (A53317)
Kubota B2301 (A53317)
2024 PRO FABRICATION RTM-5.2K-Y REEL TRAILER (A59905)
2024 PRO...
2015 Ford F-250 Crew Cab Pickup Truck (A59230)
2015 Ford F-250...
OMEGA 20 TON CRANE (A58214)
OMEGA 20 TON CRANE...
404 (A52706)
404 (A52706)
2010 MAXEY WELDING 20 T/A GOOSENECK TRAILER (A58214)
2010 MAXEY WELDING...
 
Top