Guns, Banks & Wild West Texas

[MikeD74T]

Oh gosh, I'm digging a hole! What I am trying to say is that I personally think that when crooks have easy access to more potent force it's a bad recipe.

The motor vehicle argument has no relation as my point is related to crooks having acces.

Anyhow, I should not have posted, sorry.

jimmyj, First I apologize for offending you, it was/is not my intent. Your opinion has as much value as anyone else's. I made the automobile reference to point out that figures can be skewed. With more proximity to a hazard risk & incidence increases. Violent crime increases with proximity to criminals. Criminals by definition use commonplace items (cars, guns, bricks, unexploded munitions) & methods against society. As ultimately futile as crime is, criminals generally believe the biggest stick wins. Guns are pretty much the biggest stick available today. But eliminating guns removes only one criminal option, removing criminals removes crime.

texasjohn, Most state highways get federal money, should the state be able to post no legal firearms on the roadways?

I work at a nuclear power plant. There is a specific federal statute prohibiting "weapons" in the plant. "Weapons" is also very specifically defined along with allowances for deviation. e.i. I can't bring a 10" knife from home to sharpen it in the machine shop, but can bring the same knife if needed to prepare a on site meal for my crew. The difference is simply notifying my boss & the security dept. As for private businesses, I'll continue to carry concealed because worst they can do is ask me to leave. N.H. law allows open carry which would simply incite those business owners to ask me to leave sooner. In either case I'd just do business elsewhere.

"Weapons" side story. Nearby is beach resort town. Some residents were complaining that a couple of beach shops were selling martial arts weapons & opined the town should outlaw those sales. This same town filed a cease & desist order on a college kid giving free pedicab rides without a peddlers license! The town reps actually referenced not wanting to go up against the NRA over articles that, although offensive to some, are not statistically part of criminal activity and left the shops alone. I doubt an archery shop would raise eyebrows at the beach despite the lethal potential. The college kid was committing a crime, the martial arts shop owners were not. MikeD74T

 

[Bird]

As for private businesses, I'll continue to carry concealed because worst they can do is ask me to leave.

That may be true in your state, but not everywhere. In Texas, you could very well be facing arrest and/or a fine. Section 30.05 of the Texas Penal Code covers "Criminal Trespass". So without copying a lot of material, it basically says it's illegal to enter or remain on private property if you've been given notice to not do so. So, yes, asking you to leave is one way of giving you notice, but in Texas at least, proper signs serve that purpose also. So if you enter with your weapon when there is a proper sign saying not to do so, you're guilty even if you have not been orally/verbally asked to leave.

 

[jimmyj]

No worries Mike, I was not offended. I just want to treat lightly on TBN because I enjoy the forum so much.

 

[Cat_Driver]

...Texas at least, proper signs serve that purpose also. So if you enter with your weapon when there is a proper sign saying not to do so, you're guilty even if you have not been orally/verbally asked to leave.

Guilty, before a trial?

A law based on me " seeing" that sign at the door or where ever it's posted is a poor law. I would love to see a jury of 12 people PROVE without a shadow of doubt that I saw that sign when I entered any building. Sorry your Honor I was reading a book as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking down at my feet so I didn't trip, Sorry your Honor I was playing with those finger games as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking at the cracks in the sidewalk ans playing step on a crack and break your mothers back......and on and on and on.

Now, if at the door they make me show my I.D. and sign a notarized document that I have read all the ruled of that establishment and I still entered with a gun, ya then they would have a case, otherwise they are spitting in the wind.

 

[dcyrilc]

A lot of differing view points and all of them presented in a respectful manor.:thumbsup:

Jinman,
Well said. I don't agree when it comes to a business, but well said. As for a private residence, the jury is still out for me on this. My response to Bird below may help to explain why I feel this way.

Bird,
I believe that the ability to ask anyone to leave a store because it is private property is constant across the US. However, there is a point where this is not true and can actually become illegal. My wife and I were watching a show the other night which was attempting to show a problem in many high end retail stores where minorities are asked to leave simply because of their ethnic background. IMO a store posting signs stating "No African Americans Allowed" would be shut down quickly regardless what Texas law says about signs. My point here is that some laws superceed other laws and that just because something is posted doesn't necessarily make it legal. Some of this suff can become pretty grey as to what is legal and what is not.

 

[tallyho8]

Guilty, before a trial?

A law based on me " seeing" that sign at the door or where ever it's posted is a poor law. I would love to see a jury of 12 people PROVE without a shadow of doubt that I saw that sign when I entered any building. Sorry your Honor I was reading a book as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking down at my feet so I didn't trip, Sorry your Honor I was playing with those finger games as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking at the cracks in the sidewalk ans playing step on a crack and break your mothers back......and on and on and on.

Sorry but your theory does not hold up. When signs are legally posted the presumption in court is that the violator did or should have read them.

If your theory was correct then all you would have to do to get out of a speeding ticket was say "sorry officer, I didn't see the sign"

The prosecutor does not have to prove that you saw the stop sign, no trespassing sign, ladies room sign, etc., they only have to prove that it is legally posted.

 

[firedog]

I have a CCL, pocket carry all the time, on ranch and off. Except where it's not legal which includes, as I recall from my CCL training, medical facilities because they are considered federal facilities since they take Medicare funds, and banks which all have signs and I thought there was at least a state if not federal law outlawing CCL weapons. I am amazed it seems to be a "local option."

Not looking for trouble but if some unavoidably shows up with deadly intent, then I intend to defend myself and family.

The right to a speedy trial has long since been abrogated.

I agree wholeheartily John, better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
I looked through my handbook and could not find that banks were included on the no carry list (nor does my bank have any signage.) Hospitals, nursing homes, schools, sanctioned public events (that one gets me..sanctioned???) amusment parks, govt. buildings where govt meetings are taking place & the 51% liquor sales.
The Post office is not on the list either, and I've had some lengthy discussion with friends over it. Although they have a sign "no weapons" or "no handguns, concealed or otherwise" posted it is not in compliance with the 30.06 State requirements.
What gets me is, that all the places I can recall off hand, where gunmen have commited shooting sprees, are typically on the no carry list, which goes against the whole idea.

 

[twarr1]

Okay jimmyj,

While this discussion can see many directions, it often lacks consideration of the fact that my rights never outweigh the rights of others. My private property is my private property and your desire to carry can be revoked by me while you are on my property, leaving you the option of not carrying or staying off my property. We all use hospitals, banks, shopping centers, and restaurants. Most all of those are private property and have the right to set the rules. There is no law against discrimation based on a desire to carry. I can ask you to leave my business or other property if I want to. It's no different than a sign that says, "No shoes, no shirt, no service!" What this bank has done is to specifically grant the right to carry to all those with the CHL and not guarantee a robber that they will not be challenged by unarmed patrons.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Bird]

Guilty, before a trial?

A law based on me " seeing" that sign at the door or where ever it's posted is a poor law. I would love to see a jury of 12 people PROVE without a shadow of doubt that I saw that sign when I entered any building. Sorry your Honor I was reading a book as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking down at my feet so I didn't trip, Sorry your Honor I was playing with those finger games as I was walking, Sorry your Honor, I was looking at the cracks in the sidewalk ans playing step on a crack and break your mothers back......and on and on and on.

Now, if at the door they make me show my I.D. and sign a notarized document that I have read all the ruled of that establishment and I still entered with a gun, ya then they would have a case, otherwise they are spitting in the wind.

Guilty before a trial?:laughing: Well, enough to get arrested. We could go into all kinds of legal technicalities and you might or might not beat the rap in court. You may notice I did not say a "sign"; I said "proper sign". The law sets forth all the description of size, location, wording, etc. And if that is done, that is "prima facie" evidence of your guilt. That doesn't mean you cannot ever beat it, and I'd be happy to have you come to Texas and try.:laughing:

 

[Wooddust]

In Missouri :

Missouri Law defines certain locations where carrying a concealed weapon is prohibited. These include:

Any police, sheriff or highway patrol office or station*
Federal buildings
Any courthouse
Stadiums with capacity of 5,000 or more
Bi-State buses and MetroLink
Within 25' of a polling place on election day.
Any adult or juvenile detention center or correctional institution, prison or jail.
Any meeting of the governing body of a local unit of government, or any meeting of the general assembly.
Any gated area of an amusement park.
Any public hospital
Businesses which obtain at least 51% of their revenue from the sale of alcohol
Any area of an airport to which access is controlled y the inspection of persons and property.
Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law.
Any higher education institution, elementary or secondary school facility*
Any portion of a building used as a child-care facility*
Any riverboat gambling operation accessible by the public*
Any church or other place of religious worship*
* Without prior consent and approval.
Additionally, private businesses can prohibit concealed carry within their business if they post "No Concealed Carry" signs clearly at the entrance to the building.

Our right to carry is a right and we can have it taken away if we choose to ignore the simple rules that we have on the books. A CCW is not a license to be an idiot nor is it your ticket to go out and play cop. Its a big responsibility if you choose to carry.

Also in MO, if you are armed and get a DWI, it automatically moves to FELONY DWI.