Guns, Banks & Wild West Texas

[txdon]

I have no personal experience for this opinion, but I believe carrying a gun and being able to use one well under stress, and making correct split second decisions is not in the realm of the average citizens capability. I know - very few of us think we are average

My .02 with helmet, as JimmyJ says.
Dave.

If I could just catch ya'll without your helmets!


No one knows if they will be able to use a gun properly under stress. But aren't you glad YOU and business owners have a choice?

(Dave, answer to your question "Afraid of what, exactly?" - Another small town up the road: Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

[two_bit_score]

The evidence in Texas has not been as Dave fears it might be. We have not had a discrenable increase in armed robbers coming in with guns blazing in an effort to take out any armed citizens who might be present. Truth is it's pretty had for even criminals to just shoot someone down in cold blood. Though it does happen. It has not become the 'new norma' in armed robberies in Texas.

 

[dave1949]

If I could just catch ya'll without your helmets!


No one knows if they will be able to use a gun properly under stress. But aren't you glad YOU and business owners have a choice?

(Another small town up the road: Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Not against choice, just wary of unintended consequences. Had the lady in the Luby's who had a gun in her car had it on her person, the outcome could have been the same or different - that will never be known. You can argue that with a gun, her chances of altering the outcome are greatly improved - for better or worse.

What happens when the police show up and 20 patrons are in the midst of a shootout? Think all of them will be aiming at the correct target? I just cannot accept it as step in the right direction I guess. Put another way, the 2nd Amendment provides the right to bear arms - it is a sad day when you need to. I am not convinced of that need or the outcomes.

Apparently the Texas Legislature isn't either, given the list of places where CC is prohibited.

I'm strapping down my helmet
Dave.

 

[texasjohn]

When things go bad, often there is no logic, no escape and little time. I googled "witness shot" and found this from upstate New York, 2009 as an example:

But by the time law enforcement arrived at the American Civic Association, about two minutes after the 10:31 a.m. call to 911, the shootings had ceased and 14 people were dead in the center, including the suspected gunman, law enforcement officials said.


Four more people were wounded in the attack, in what the city's mayor has called the "most tragic day in Binghamton's history."

The point is, situations can arise, although infrequently, where the only protection is that which one provides for themselves, even though the victims involved were minding their own business and not looking for trouble or in a "crime area." And, these can arise in any state, red or blue, redneck, teabagger, wild west, urban, suburban, metropolis or rural. Typically, the victims realize that deadly force is being applied around them and seek to avoid it themselves. Had some of the victims been armed, perhaps the outcome might have been different.

Here is the full story.

Another, equally shocking story is here, where 2330 witnesses willing to testify in court have been threatened or murdered since 1998 in Colorado.

 

[dave1949]

When things go bad, often there is no logic, no escape and little time. I googled "witness shot" and found this from upstate New York, 2009 as an example:

But by the time law enforcement arrived at the American Civic Association, about two minutes after the 10:31 a.m. call to 911, the shootings had ceased and 14 people were dead in the center, including the suspected gunman, law enforcement officials said.


Four more people were wounded in the attack, in what the city's mayor has called the "most tragic day in Binghamton's history."

The point is, situations can arise, although infrequently, where the only protection is that which one provides for themselves, even though the victims involved were minding their own business and not looking for trouble or in a "crime area." And, these can arise in any state, red or blue, redneck, teabagger, wild west, urban, suburban, metropolis or rural. Typically, the victims realize that deadly force is being applied around them and seek to avoid it themselves. Had some of the victims been armed, perhaps the outcome might have been different.

Here is the full story.

It's very possible someone with a gun could have altered the outcome, or at least limited the number of people killed or wounded. Ignoring that in almost any state, CC would probably not be permitted in such a facility. That is a different issue.

Two things come to mind.

You are assuming there is no downside to having citizens, in sufficient numbers to overcome the right place, right time odds, carrying weapons around. That logic implies any number of gunshot wounds or deaths resulting from accidents or passion would be justified by the rare occasion when an armed citizen shot a criminal and prevented a violent crime. We all love a hero, so I get that.

Also, if I wanted to kill as many people as possible and planned to commit suicide (or not), and I thought I may be opposed by guns, I could adopt a different weapon strategy which would make your guns useless. That is the 'arms race' aspect of this.

We have the right to bear arms, if it makes us feel better, so be it, but don't expect miracles.

Dave.

 

[txdon]

Also, if I wanted to kill as many people as possible...

We have the right to bear arms, if it makes us feel better, so be it, but don't expect miracles.

Dave.

The only miracle we could expect is for your gun to jam or for you run out of bullets.... I't nice to have another choice on not becoming a victim.

 

[dave1949]

The only miracle we could expect is for your gun to jam or for you run out of bullets.... I't nice to have another choice on not becoming a victim.

I did run out of ammo and went to bed Only in Hollywood do people never run out of ammo and Jack Bauer's cell phone battery never goes dead :laughing:

I understand your point and don't disagree with you on not becoming a victim.
Dave.

 

[jimmyj]

Fascinating discussion. I can't really speak from an educated position because Canada is so very different than the US regarding the ownership of guns. That said, in my rural area most people have guns and the crime rate is extremely low. Murder is basically unheard of although there are a few armed robberies and I fully expect that the robbers would use a knife if a gun was not available. And there is no doubt that gun registration laws mean nothing to a scumbag robber who is readily willing to contravene both the law of the State and humanities moral conscience.

All that said, and this is an academic question not a criticism, how does the ready availability and ownership of guns in the US equate to escalation in the serousness or frequency of crime? I don't think it has anything to do with frequency for the record, but I'm curious about the level of serious violent crime in the face of more powerful weapons (guns vs bats, knives).

What I can't ever get my head around, is the point I tried to make off the top. If guns are more common is gun crime more common? It has to be, it's just simple logic. Phew, I hope that makes sense.

 

[texasjohn]

Dave, concealed carry is about having personal protection with ME....so I do not fall off of the lowest rung of Maslow's hierarchy of needs..survival...

not about having so many CCL people in society that there will always be several around so that any bad scene is resolved before LEOs arrive.

No illusions, there will always be bad scenes, seems to be part of the human condition.

 

[txdon]

Fascinating discussion.

All that said, and this is an academic question not a criticism, how does the ready availability and ownership of guns in the US equate to escalation in the serousness or frequency of crime? I don't think it has anything to do with frequency for the record, but I'm curious about the level of serious violent crime in the face of more powerful weapons (guns vs bats, knives).

NationMaster - Crime Statistics

It is a question to be asked at an academic level to include all social problems and survival instincts.

I don't know how accurate these number are but the per capita rate of serious crimes and murder with guns is compared by country. There seems to be some very social and survival problems in the worst countries.

Canada is just more civilized than most of the world, the rest of us just adapt.

Opps ... Canada's higher rape statistics show some social skills are lacking there.