Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..)

EdDekker · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Egon, I like your idea! My gf was sprayed with some liquid oxygen once and got instant frostbite.

A fire extinguisher sized stream of -200 C liquid in the face would stop the most determined intruder!


A single shot from any gun would be real interesting after adding all that oxygen to the room.

EdDekker · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Bob,
I agreee with most of your post.

In a self defense situation one must have confidence that the gun will be reliable.

When I worked up a handload for IPSC (practical pistol) competition I could not be certain it would be reliable in a particular semi auto until I had fired a couple hundred (or a couple thousand) rounds without a misfeed or jam. In an IPSC match a stovepipe jam (a failure to completely eject the fired case) is embarrassing and results in a lower score. In a self defense situation a jam would be far worse.

The Safety slugs are light with little recoil. They may not have enough recoil to operate a recoil driven semi-auto (like a 1911) reliably. (And what is the chamber pressure when firing a Safety slug and how well will it work in a gas operated semi-auto?)

Since the Safety Slugs are so expensive I would reserve them for use in revolvers.

There is an argument against the Safety Slugs. I am not sure how much weight to give it. (Arguments about Safety Slugs resemble debates over the proper religion.) A thick leather jacket can act as a bullet proof vest offering protection from the Safety Slug. The safety slugs expand on contact with the jacket with the jacket lining absorbing much of the energy of the tiny shot resulting in an ugly bleeding flesh wound only skin deep. I have seen photos simulating this with a leather jacket placed over a block of ballistic Gelatin.

In one of his books Massad Ayoob recommends that your self defense gun should use the same type and brand ammunition that your local police use. The District Attorney is not likely to find a problem with this ammunition if you ever have the need to use it. If you are sued by the widow of the intruder you can call the local police chief as a witness to validate your choice of ammunition. The lawyer for the widow will no doubt point out to the jury just how evil the ammunition you used is. This can be done for any ammunition choice: The safety slug (or any expanding bullet) will be described as a flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention and therefore illegal by the law of war, yet used by you in your bloodlust.... Any non-expanding bullet will be described as a military ammunition and a product of war, you acted as if you were on a battlefield not in a civilized country, inflicting a military wound as you played soildier ....

I think Ayoob's reasoning makes a lot of sense.

As far as a gun for someone who is not a gun enthusiast, I would recommend a revolver as a first choice or if one must have a semi-auto than a double action semi auto. A revolver is simplest for someone who will not spend a lot of time at the range, giving an assured six (or so) shots. With a few speed loaders and a few hours practice one can have a good chance of reloading in a stressful situation. With any semi auto jams are possible after every shot. If one is to use a semi-auto for defense one should be able to clear a jam in the dark in a few seconds. This takes far more practice time. The safety is easy to forget in a stressful situation. The only way to make releasing the safety automatic is hours of practice. A double-action semi-auto can be built without a separate safety. The Glock or a HK P7M13 operates double action and the safety is 'automatic' (a prong on the glock trigger and a handgrip safety on the HK)

A single action like the 1911 requires more attention and would require substantially more recurring practice time. (I shoot a 1911 in IPSC matches but would pick my HK P7M13 (or a revolver) for home defense.)

EdDekker · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Rogue; have you considered the use of some of the spray deterents that can incapicate an intruder.


A few years ago I read about a test. The test was to settle an argument between two groups of friends. Some (defenders) thought that sprays would incapacitate an attacker, others (attackers) thought that the sprays are of little use.

They conducted a series of tests to settle the issue. In each test the start was two subjects standing next to a table. A rubber knife was on the table. The attacker started with his hands in the air. The defender was holding a can of CS gas or pepper spray. The test would start with the defender spraying the attacker in the face, turning and running away.

In every test the attacker picked up the knife and stabbed the defender before the defender was 3 steps away.

Egon · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Ed:
I would then guess that these extinquishers cannot be used in a fire as there is already an ignition source available ?

Egon

r0GuE · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I am really only thinking of it for home defense. If I decide I need to carry outside the home, i would get another HK P7 . It is extremely flat and has only a single stack magazine. No safetys or decockers needed. In fact, I may decide to go that way for home defense as well, but I really would like to get a .45.

I have some experience shooting .45 but not nearly as much as 9mm. I know that a J.C Penny catalog will stop a roundball .45 but a phone book won't /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif. Don't ask...

I just really miss some of the fun of these little machines too. I don't miss cleaning them, but I do miss the smell of Hoppes #9.

Bob_Skurka · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Ed . . . .
I agree with most of your post too.

First, the Glasers and Mag-Safe's are within the pressure specs and do not raise chamber pressures above the normal range. There are a few +P rated rounds, but those are so marked, they make standard pressure rounds. The reason they are high velocity is that they are much lighter than standard rounds.

Regarding Mas Ayoob's statements about choice of round, I tend to also agree with him. He has more practical experience in front of bad people than I would ever hope to have. In fact, I hope to live my hole life without ever facing one up close and personal. His choice of rounds is based strictly on the liability laws and what holds up well as defense in court. Personally, I stack my guns with Mag Safes at the top and Federal Hydra Shoks on the bottom.

Regarding the leather jackets and Mag-Safe's/Glasers. . . there is some possibility that there might be under penetration from a Mag-Safe or Glaser in some circumstances. It is remote. However, stacking a couple Hydra Shoks at the bottom of the magazine solves that issue and allows me to shoot through a wall if I choose.

In my safe room we have a strategic wall inside a walk in closet that sets up a safe fire zone for me that would prevent any intruder from making it up the stairs alive.

As for the choice of a revolver for a novice, I also recommend that. For gun people I like the 1911.

Docsknotinn · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I dont agree at all with all this light ammo stuff. Personally if I am going to have a Fire arm for self defense I am going to have the hottest most Wicked ammo available. So the dead Guys spouse is going to sue me. Big Deal. Need some peace of mind, then for about $150 a year you can buy a 1 million dollar umbrella policy. Sue away, at least I wont be dead. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The prosecutor is another issue. Didnt that guy have one of my guns in his hand ??? Now the the Kimber ultra is deseigned as a carry weapon as well and is a single stack magazine. I think its 1 3/8 " thick total. I also cant say I think Okee Don is wrong for his views. Its just a personal choice. Don if your ever in the street you dont have to worry about me running over you, my little 2210 doesnt go that fast /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think we need to try some saddle shooting, Cowboy action on a tractor /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hank · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I haven't seen it mentioned....has anyone tried out the (relatively) new cartridge "357 Sig", really a .40 necked down to 9mm caliber. It is supposedly designed to produce the terminal ballistics of a .357. Secret Service issues this handgun now.

RanchMan · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Ha! #9 is great, isn't it?? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since "home" is the concern, I think I'd lean toward the P90 (DA/SA) over the 1911 (don't get me wrong - I'm a BIG 1911 fan.) For one thing, the P90 is quite a bit bigger and harder to conceal, but in the home that's not an issue. My main reason for suggesting the P90 is how the incident may unfold.

While both situations (i.e. having to deal with an incident while carrying or having an incident take place while in the home) involve high stress levels that affect your cognitive ability, at home you have one additional strike against you: sleep.

There's the very real possibility you will be asleep when "bad guy" starts his criminal activities. It's bad enough to deal with a stressful situation when you've been awake for several hours - a lot worse when you are having to "get your head together" immediately after you wake up.

Because the Ruger I mention is DA on the first shot and there is no safety (like a revolver), it is literally "point and pull the trigger" - no safety to worry about. Yes, it is still a auto, so you do have all the issues associated with them (i.e. potential jams) - but I have found the P90 reliable as long as it is kept clean and fed with a proven ammo.

There are alternatives to the Ruger for sure - I just like it because of it's proven track record with me. Some may not like the looks of it (a bit "different"), but looks aren't the most important thing when it comes to this matter. I generally have liked Ruger pistols - good experiences with them and they don't "break the bank" as some of the Euro stuff does.

You might check to see if a local range has "rentals" you can use in the various brands you are comparing so you can do a "hands on" test. Whatever the choice winds up being, I'm sure you'll pick a good one as none of the models brought up so far are of a poor quality.

Gary_in_Indiana · Dec 5, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

 A single shot from any gun would be real interesting after adding all that oxygen to the room. 

WOW! Talk about muzzle flash... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif