GVWR With vs. Without Tongue Weight

[Dougster]

While shopping around for my new dump trailer, I'm learning that a few trailer manufacturers sticker their trailers with GVWR ratings that include truck tongue weight while most do not. For most, the GVWR rating is exactly the sum of the two axle/wheel/tires ratings (or, in some cases, intentionally even lower):

Example A: GVWR = Number of axles X axle GAWR

For some:

Example B: GVWR = Number of axles X axle GAWR plus tongue weight.

Often the tongue weight used seems grossly overstated from reality... apparently to inflate the trailer's true physical capability.

My question for today: For two otherwise identical trailers with exactly the same number of axles and same axle ratings, what are the legal ramifications, if any, of the manufacturer stickering the trailer's GVWR rating with vs. without including tongue weight???

In particular, in Example B cases, am I gaining any protection from The Man when hauling a load that marginally exceeds the combined axle rating of the trailer and NEEDS that tongue weight considered to be legal.

Dougster

 

[schmism]

well lets look at it this way....

take this number the capacity of axle/wheel/tires ratings X # of axles.

so for the sake of an easy example (2)-5000 lb axles

would mean they can "safely" carry 10,000# combined.

general rule of thumb is 10% of total trailer load (in this case the 10K #) in toung weight.... or 1000 lbs in this case.

so thats a 1000 lbs not carried by the axles of the trailer.

one could then infer 11,000 total "scale" load. 1100 toung weight, total load carried by the 2 5000# axles, = 9900 lbs or just a fuz under max rated load.



personally i think the above is really pointless. Im much more worried about trying to stop the 10,000 or 11,000 lbs of load than i am about being a few hundred pounds over my "trailer rateing"

 

[Dougster]

well lets look at it this way....
take this number the capacity of axle/wheel/tires ratings X # of axles.
so for the sake of an easy example (2)-5000 lb axles
would mean they can "safely" carry 10,000# combined.
general rule of thumb is 10% of total trailer load (in this case the 10K #) in toung weight.... or 1000 lbs in this case.
so thats a 1000 lbs not carried by the axles of the trailer.
one could then infer 11,000 total "scale" load. 1100 toung weight, total load carried by the 2 5000# axles, = 9900 lbs or just a fuz under max rated load.
personally i think the above is really pointless. Im much more worried about trying to stop the 10,000 or 11,000 lbs of load than i am about being a few hundred pounds over my "trailer rateing"

I totally understand the practical & sensible aspects... but for good reasons we won't get into again here, please just consider me a total paranoid nutcase when it comes to obeying the letter of the law here in the People's Republic of Taxachusetts.

So my question is: In your fine example, for otherwise identical trailers with identical axle (GAWR) ratings, does a stickered trailer GVWR of 11,000 lbs buy be anything in a legal sense over a physically identical trailer from another company with a stickered GVWR of 10,000 lbs?

Dougster

 

[Bob_Skurka]

If I was worried about overloading a trailer, I would buy a heavier duty trailer. Trailers, unless they are commerical grade, are usually built too lightly and not well designed. Dump trailers are better than most, but if you figure you are going to occasionally overload your trailer by 5 or 10% then my guess is that you are also going to load your trailer up to or very near its capacity on a regular basis. If that is true, then you will probably see that trailer die and early death.

We run a fleet of vehicles, found out the hard way that when we buy vehicles we buy them with about 25% greater load capacity than we actually run them. Doing that gives us a 10+ year lifespan. However, if we buy a vehicle that has a capacity that is within 10% of the actual loads we see those vehicles last for only 3 ot 5 years!!!

No matter how you add it up, if you have something that has a GVWR of 10,000#, and you regularly load it to/near its capacity (about 7500# of Cargo assuming the dump trailer weighs 2500#), it will break or wear out prematurely.

 

[Dougster]

If I was worried about overloading a trailer, I would buy a heavier duty trailer. Trailers, unless they are commerical grade, are usually built too lightly and not well designed. Dump trailers are better than most, but if you figure you are going to occasionally overload your trailer by 5 or 10% then my guess is that you are also going to load your trailer up to or very near its capacity on a regular basis. If that is true, then you will probably see that trailer die and early death. We run a fleet of vehicles, found out the hard way that when we buy vehicles we buy them with about 25% greater load capacity than we actually run them. Doing that gives us a 10+ year lifespan. However, if we buy a vehicle that has a capacity that is within 10% of the actual loads we see those vehicles last for only 3 ot 5 years!!! No matter how you add it up, if you have something that has a GVWR of 10,000#, and you regularly load it to/near its capacity (about 7500# of Cargo assuming the dump trailer weighs 2500#), it will break or wear out prematurely.

Believe me Bob, I do understand that. Everything you are saying is true and very good advice. Same with Steve's comments. But my question is not about prudence and practical matters. My question is about dealing with The Man and what, if anything, those very different numbers on identical trailers might mean in a "close" situation.

Dougster

 

[Builder]

My trailer is rated with tongue weight included. I have a 18,400 GVWR trailer. It "only" has (2) 8,000 lb axles. What they figure is that you can add 15% for tongue weight. So (2) 8,000lb axles x 2 = 16,000lbs x 15%(T/W) = 2,400lbs.

16,000lbs (max axle capacity)+ 2,400lbs (max tongue weight) = 18,400 lbs.

Trailer weighs 4,200lbs empty.

18,400lbs(GVWR trailer) - 4,200lbs (E/W trailer) = 14,200lbs load capacity.

We generally use 15% tongue weight around here, but it all depends on how the weight is loaded. more fore of the trailer axles = more t/w. More aft of the trailer axles = less t/w.

Many trailers these days are rated this way to give the appearance of having more GVWR than they really have, but it's actually more accurate in my opinino since the truck does "bear" some of the weight.

 

[AlanB]

Doug, I think the actual problem is that "the man" is just that, a man, and you may run into one that is easygoing and logical and looks at it as you do, or you may run into one that is idiotic, and twists what is written to fit what he wants (I think they call them lawyers in some places) But it is just that, you are dealing with a man, and his interpetation. If you think it is borderline, and are not willing to argue / risk it, then I would suggest erring on the side of caution.

Or, as has been said in the past, go to the "head" man, as I know you have done, and get a clarification statement, but then keep that with you so that when getting hassled by "the man" with the blue light and the gun, you have something to back up your position with.

That said, what very limited experience I have had with DOT enforcement, has been that they have been pretty reasonable, the folks I have seen have problems have been CLEARLY beyond the pale, the ones I have seen get in a ton of trouble have been the ones that then proceeded to argue vehemently and loudly with the officer, even though they were thoroughly wrong.

 

[Builder]

That's right. never have any doubt that YOU probably know more than the LEO that pulled you over. I have asked "test" questions politely to officers in convenience stores or when they're not busy and have been very disturbed by how wrong their answers were or how greatly varying their answers are to the exact same question.

the best one to ask is if you need a class A CDL to tow a trailer over 10K. The answer(s) will surprise you.

 

[MrJimi]

Not to bump heads with anyone but!! If a regular license is good to move 26,000 pounds , how would one get to that point of 26,000 pounds ?
Thats lots of weight
Take the average 1/2 ton PU ( 5,000 ) pulling a 7,000 trailer would only bring it up to 12,000 pounds, 14,000 left over?
again CDL is the key word, are you commercial? if yes, you need CDL
and if you are the farmer in the dell, no

 

[Highbeam]

Good quesiton. My trailer GVWR is equal to the sum of the 5200# axle ratings.

There is a riveted tag on the tongue that lists GVWR, this weight is gross of the trailer and includes tongue. So if I were to be in trouble for exceeding the GVWR then the officer would have to weigh the gross trailer. Fine.

My axles have a GAWR. If I were to get in trouble for exceeding either or both GAWRs then that would require the man to weigh the axle load. Easy enough and fair. Same with tire ratings.

I believe that it would not be fair, legal, or proper for the man to compare the GVWR to the GAWR. They are two different ratings.

Be sure to not paint over or destroy that GVWR tag.