GVWR With vs. Without Tongue Weight

Builder · May 9, 2007

MrJimi said:
Not to bump heads with anyone but!! If a regular license is good to move 26,000 pounds , how would one get to that point of 26,000 pounds ?
Thats lots of weight
Take the average 1/2 ton PU ( 5,000 ) pulling a 7,000 trailer would only bring it up to 12,000 pounds, 14,000 left over?
again CDL is the key word, are you commercial? if yes, you need CDL
and if you are the farmer in the dell, no

You could have a 15,000lb GVWR F-450 and a 11,000lb GVWR trailer. The sum of both vehicles together is 26,000lbs....perfectly legal with a garden variety drivers licence.

Now take a 17,500 GVWR F-550 and put an 11,000lb trailer behind it. THEN you would need a class A CDL.

But guess what? A 26,000lb hydraulic braked dump truck with a 10,000lb trailer can be driven with....guess what???? You guessed it.....An ordinary driver's licence.

What most people don't understand is that in most states, it's kind of an "if-and-then" law when it comes to needing or not needing a CDL.

In most states it usually reads:

"IF the trailer is over 10,000lbs AND the combination of vehicles is over 26,001lbs, THEN a class A CDL is required". (if the towing vehicle and/or trailer has air brakes, then an air brake endorsement is required)

"IF the trailer is under 10,001lbs AND the towing vehicle is over 26,001, THEN a class B CDL is required." (if the towing vehicle has air brakes, then an air brake endorsement is also required).

"IF the trailer is over 10,000lbs AND the combination of vehicles is under 26,001, THEN a class A CDL is not required."

I hear NY and CA might have some slight variations to those laws, but they're the federally mandated DOT trucking laws that are generally accepted by most states.

Dougster · May 9, 2007

L39Builder said:
My trailer is rated with tongue weight included. I have a 18,400 GVWR trailer. It "only" has (2) 8,000 lb axles. What they figure is that you can add 15% for tongue weight. So (2) 8,000lb axles x 2 = 16,000lbs x 15%(T/W) = 2,400lbs.
16,000lbs (max axle capacity)+ 2,400lbs (max tongue weight) = 18,400 lbs.
Trailer weighs 4,200lbs empty.
18,400lbs(GVWR trailer) - 4,200lbs (E/W trailer) = 14,200lbs load capacity.
We generally use 15% tongue weight around here, but it all depends on how the weight is loaded. more fore of the trailer axles = more t/w. More aft of the trailer axles = less t/w.
Many trailers these days are rated this way to give the appearance of having more GVWR than they really have, but it's actually more accurate in my opinino since the truck does "bear" some of the weight.

I see from your signature that it is a Cam trailer you are talking about and, in fact, that is the brand that I am writing about!

But the legal question still remains. Let's assume that you are hauling a load such that each axle is right at 7,999 lbs with 10% more... roughly 1,600 lbs... riding on the tongue. You have neither exceeded the stickered axle ratings nor the stickered GVWR of the trailer. Okay, fine. The Man smiles at you, lets you drive on... and all is well with the world.

Right behind you I come along with a Brand X trailer that is 100% identical to yours in every possible respect and... I'll be darned... also happens to be carrying a 100% identical load. What a crazy coincidence!!!

But Brand X goes by the more common practice of stickered GVWR = Sum of axle GAWRs.

The same cop stops me 3 minutes after you've left. My axles are still okay... but suddenly he sees that my total trailered weight puts me 1,598 lbs over my stickered GVWR. I am dragged off to jail and left to rot there since I can't make bail.

Is my thinking correct here? Or will The Man realize that he just let an absolutely 100% identical trailer pass... and allow me to drive away as well no worse for wear?

In other words, is there a possible legal advantage to buying a CAM trailer (or similarly stickered trailer) over Brand X?

Again I stress: I am only addressing the legal aspect of a hypothetical case. No fair pounding on me anymore that I should have bought a bigger trailer!

And please, no more telling me to call The Man at his office or corner him somewhere with a donut in his mouth. I have called The Man more times than all of you combined! If I had a clear answer by now, I wouldn't be bothering you all again here!

Dougster

Builder · May 9, 2007

Dougster said:
I see from your signature that it is a Cam trailer you are talking about and, in fact, that is the brand that I am writing about!

But the legal question still remains. Let's assume that you are hauling a load such that each axle is right at 7,999 lbs with 10% more... roughly 1,600 lbs... riding on the tongue. You have neither exceeded the stickered axle ratings nor the stickered GVWR of the trailer. Okay, fine. The Man smiles at you, lets you drive on... and all is well with the world.

Right behind you I come along with a Brand X trailer that is 100% identical to yours in every possible respect and... I'll be darned... also happens to be carrying a 100% identical load. What a crazy coincidence!!! But Brand X goes by the more common practice of stickered GVWR = Sum of axle GAWRs.

The same cop stops me 3 minutes after you've left. My axles are still okay... but suddenly he sees that my total trailered weight puts me 1,598 lbs over my stickered GVWR. I am dragged off to jail and left to rot there since I can't make bail.

Is my thinking correct here? Or will The Man realize that he just let an absolutely 100% identical trailer pass... and allow me to drive away as well no worse for wear? In other words, is there a possible legal advantage to buying a CAM trailer (or similarly stickered trailer) over Brand X?

Again I stress: I am only addressing the legal aspect of a hypothetical case. No fair pounding on me anymore that I should have bought a bigger trailer! And please, no more telling me to call The Man at his office or corner him somewhere with a donut in his mouth. I have called The Man more times than all of you combined! If I had a clear answer by now, I wouldn't be bothering you all again here!

Dougster

Dude,

You are WAAAAAYYY too worried about the small stuff. Try some decaf LOL

Look if in your 2nd example you ARE over the GVWR or the axle's weight capacity, the DOT understands that some of the weight sits on the azz of the truck. Anyone except the cute little female LEOs know that!

If he doesn't believe you, put the jack down on your trailer and unhitch it from your truck with the load still on the trailer. Pull the truck forwar 3 feet. Put truck in park. Ask the LEO to hold the tongue area of the trailer while you lower the jack....

Unless he's an extraordinary powerlifter, he won't be able to support the tongue area and the tongue of the trailer will continue to sink as you lower the jack.

That will prove that a certain percentage (minimum 10% max 20% or whatever the max tongue weight of your truck is) sits on the back of the truck.

All they will do is weigh out your total with a scale and see how much you are "overweight". Then they'll decide how much "credit" they'll give you for tongue weight.

Just try to keep it closer to 10% than 20% if you're really worried.

Why do you think trailer hitches have "tongue weight" ratings?

Dougster · May 9, 2007

L39Builder said:
Dude, You are WAAAAAYYY too worried about the small stuff. Try some decaf LOL Look if in your 2nd example you ARE over the axle's weight capacity, but the DOT understands that some of the weight sits on the azz of the truck. Anyone except the cute little female LEOs knows that! If he doesn't believe you, put the jack down on your trailer and unhitch it from your truck with the load still on the trailer. Ask the LEO to hold the tongue area of the trailer while you lower the jack.... Unless he's an extraordinary powerlifter, he won't and the tongue of the trailer will continue to sink as you lower the jack. That will prove that a certain percentage (minimum 10% max 20% or whatever the max tongue weight of your truck is) sits on the back of the truck.

Sorry guy! I am off my HBP meds today... and I did just have an extra large Dunkin Donuts iced coffee.

But I warned you just to assume that I am completely paranoid in this regard... and, very unfortunately, not without good cause.

But back to the topic: It sounds like you are saying that you don't believe that the stickering method will make any difference at all... that The Man will take note, understand the different rating methods... and act accordingly. Given equal axle ratings and other build features, the stickering method would not affect your purchase of a trailer brand one way or the other... yes?

Dougster

Builder · May 9, 2007

As far as which is more advantageous to buy (one with TW added or one with GAWR axles added together), it depends on your situation. One adds all the weight in FOR you (mine does 15%).

If you buy a trailer that adds the axle GAWR's and no room for T/W, then you leave it up to the LEO to interpret what's "legal".

Cam gives you 15% (at least on my trailer it's 15%), that is in the middle between 10% & 20%.

If you buy a 10K GVWR trailer and it has (2) 5,000 GAWR axles, you should be OK at 11,000lbs since you can easily reason that you've parked your load on the trailer such that ~10% (1,000lbs) rests on the hitch. Just make sure your hitch has a 1,000 tw rating.

Most pickups have a hitch with a max t/w rating of 1,000-1,500lbs. 5th wheel would be much higher. I'm assuming you have a conventional hitch?

Builder · May 9, 2007

Dougster said:
Sorry guy! I am off my HBP meds today... and I did just have an extra large Dunkin Donuts iced coffee. But I warned you just to assume that I am completely paranoid in this regard... and, very unfortunately, not without good cause.

But back to the topic: It sounds like you are saying that you don't believe that the stickering method will make any difference at all... that The Man will take note, understand the different rating methods... and act accordingly. Given equal axle ratings and other build features, the stickering method would not affect your purchase of a trailer brand one way or the other... yes?

Dougster

well, it depends on the LEO, and that's where they GET YA!!! What is his "allowance" on TW? If it's 15-20%, then he's "lenient". If he holds the line at 10%, then he's "strict".

The "tail" that will "wag the dog" here is the TW rating of your hitch. That's usually the weakest link in the formula. Tell me what it is. Then you will begin to see the light through the clouds. Most are ~1,000lbs. That and the max GCWR of your truck need to be known, without question, then you can begin your quest into buying the right trailer.

Dougster · May 9, 2007

L39Builder said:
As far as which is more advantageous to buy (one with TW added or one with GAWR axles added together), it depends on your situation. One adds all the weight in FOR you (mine does 15%).
If you buy a trailer that adds the axle GAWR's and no room for T/W, then you leave it up to the LEO to interpret what's "legal".
Cam gives you 15% (at least on my trailer it's 15%), that is in the middle between 10% & 20%.
If you buy a 10K GVWR trailer and it has (2) 5,000 GAWR axles, you should be OK at 11,000lbs since you can easily reason that you've parked your load on the trailer such that ~10% (1,000lbs) rests on the hitch. Just make sure your hitch has a 1,000 tw rating.
Most pickups have a hitch with a max t/w rating of 1,000-1,500lbs. 5th wheel would be much higher. I'm assuming you have a conventional hitch?

Correct... conventional hitch... and yes, the CAM trailer I am considering boosts the stickered GVWR by 15% over the sum of the axle ratings.

But it seems like I read you wrong before. Sounds now like you are saying that there could be a potential legal advantage after all.

Dougster

Builder · May 9, 2007

Dougster said:
Sorry guy! I am off my HBP meds today... and I did just have an extra large Dunkin Donuts iced coffee. But I warned you just to assume that I am completely paranoid in this regard... and, very unfortunately, not without good cause.

But back to the topic: It sounds like you are saying that you don't believe that the stickering method will make any difference at all... that The Man will take note, understand the different rating methods... and act accordingly. Given equal axle ratings and other build features, the stickering method would not affect your purchase of a trailer brand one way or the other... yes?

Dougster

It depends. If CAM gives you 15% and you use all 15%, but the LEO says "no, i only allow 10%", then you got to "tell it to the judge".

I don't like to exceed 10%, just for that reason.

I think you won't be able to exceed 10% anyway, because if you buy a 10K GVWR trailer and you put 10% of the max weight on the tongue, you have just put 1,100 lbs on the tongue (11,000 x 10% = 1,100.) If your hitch isn't rated to 1,100 or more, you're in violation.

Highbeam · May 9, 2007

"Is my thinking correct here? Or will The Man realize that he just let an absolutely 100% identical trailer pass... and allow me to drive away as well no worse for wear? "

No, you're not crazy, and any policeman worth his salt will assume nothing and base his authority on nothing but the stickered rating. The only thing that the copper knows is what is on that sticker. The axle ratings are always respected in every example. Fair enough.

The GVWR sticker is sometimes the sum of the axle ratings and sometimes not. Whatever the GVWR sticker says is the official rating that you can't exceed regardless whether it is the sum of the axles.

Here's a thought for you and maybe a thought the cop might have. Perhaps the frame of the trailer is not strong enough to handle as much weight as the combined axle ratings. Perhaps the trailer frame is made of popsicle sticks and rated accordingly. The cop is no structural engineer, he reads stickers and will be right to zap you for exceeding any stickered rating period.

You will be be legally able to tow more weight by buying a trailer with a higher stickered GVWR even if it has the same axles as another trailer with a lower GVWR. Coming up with some funky excuse as to why you shouldn't have to respect the stickered GVWR is not a position I would envy.