Hand throttle setting - faster clutch wear? - gears only, no Shuttle Shift

[BrokenTrack]

I know I must take a toll on the wet and dry clutches of my GST L39 when plowing snow, forward and reverse at load and up to 2200 RPM, over and over again and again.

Respectfully I am not sure that is the case. I have a 11,000 pound John Deere 350D bulldozer with hydraulic reverser and it is 30 years old. A bulldozer by design is to run at full throttle, and shuttle back and forth without stopping, it even says so numerous times in the service manual. My bulldozer has its original reverser clutches and so far has only needed a hydraulic oil filter changed on it and runs perfectly fine.

The two most detrimental factors for hydraulic clutches in my opinion are dirty oil and heat. The clutches themselves are designed to take the enormous load.

...

Myself, and I know this happens on a farm, I think the hired hand is bored and needed something to discuss. It is all in good fun, but I think the clutch wear is being over analyzed. The only pto attachment I throttle down before shut down is my pto generator, BUT even then I am not sure with a PTO over-running clutch on it, that it really matters.

 

[mike69440]

Respectfully I am not sure that is the case. I have a 11,000 pound John Deere 350D bulldozer with hydraulic reverser and it is 30 years old. A bulldozer by design is to run at full throttle, and shuttle back and forth without stopping, it even says so numerous times in the service manual. My bulldozer has its original reverser clutches and so far has only needed a hydraulic oil filter changed on it and runs perfectly fine.

The two most detrimental factors for hydraulic clutches in my opinion are dirty oil and heat. The clutches themselves are designed to take the enormous load.

...

Myself, and I know this happens on a farm, I think the hired hand is bored and needed something to discuss. It is all in good fun, but I think the clutch wear is being over analyzed. The only pto attachment I throttle down before shut down is my pto generator, BUT even then I am not sure with a PTO over-running clutch on it, that it really matters.

The JD 350 and JD450 are sure are great little dozers. Many a basement were dug and many sites cleared with them prior to everyone using excavators.
I believe the Hydraulic wet clutches are designed to last a long time. Also the dry clutch if used properly in Power Reverser type transmissions will see less use than a gear transmission, therefore if similarly sized compared to a gear unit, should last longer also.
I still feel guilty not being easier on my GST tractor when I snow plow for the sake of "Get er Done" When I'm in a barn or arena with my little Max28 dry clutch Shuttle. I move around at near idle.
Even if a utility tractor is used for mainly field work, where a straight gear tractor is just fine, the tractor would be far more versatile if purchased with a Power Reverser transmission, along with being much nicer to operate. Case in point; the subject of this thread.
My seat time on straight gear tractors has been mainly my old B7200D and a JD790. I'm a gear guy, but I liked the tractors more than their transmissions.

 

[K5lwq]

When I was about 12 years old I went with my dad to a farm show. They had a clutch installed in a plexiglass case and with a load on the engine at high RPM they would engage the clutch. A big ball of fire would shoot off of the clutch! When they would idle down, then clutch, not even a hint of heat could be seen. It was cool as a kid to see and always has stuck with me. From that day forward I always idle down to clutch. So far in life, knock on wood, I have had very good luck with clutches. Wish I had that on video.

 

[goeduck]

When I was about 12 years old I went with my dad to a farm show. They had a clutch installed in a plexiglass case and with a load on the engine at high RPM they would engage the clutch. A big ball of fire would shoot off of the clutch! When they would idle down, then clutch, not even a hint of heat could be seen. It was cool as a kid to see and always has stuck with me. From that day forward I always idle down to clutch. So far in life, knock on wood, I have had very good luck with clutches. Wish I had that on video.

Sounds about right. As far as dozer wet clutches, they are designed to take full rpm clutching, something a tractor (particularly dry clutch) is not able to tolerate.

 

[BrokenTrack]

The JD 350 and JD450 are sure are great little dozers. Many a basement were dug and many sites cleared with them prior to everyone using excavators.
I believe the Hydraulic wet clutches are designed to last a long time. Also the dry clutch if used properly in Power Reverser type transmissions will see less use than a gear transmission, therefore if similarly sized compared to a gear unit, should last longer also.
I still feel guilty not being easier on my GST tractor when I snow plow for the sake of "Get er Done" When I'm in a barn or arena with my little Max28 dry clutch Shuttle. I move around at near idle.
Even if a utility tractor is used for mainly field work, where a straight gear tractor is just fine, the tractor would be far more versatile if purchased with a Power Reverser transmission, along with being much nicer to operate. Case in point; the subject of this thread.
My seat time on straight gear tractors has been mainly my old B7200D and a JD790. I'm a gear guy, but I liked the tractors more than their transmissions.

I think we are in full agreement on this.

You are right though that the bulldozer analogy should probably be taken off the table as they are their own entity really. Dedicated transmission pump for positive pressure, dedicated transmission filter for clean oil, etc...that makes for a different animal for sure.

One of the reasons I use my bulldozer to plow snow is because of its reverser. I could use my Kubota, but being a gear drive, constantly clutching is hard on it, and a pain for me. (Obviously the dozers 8 foot, 6 way blade also plays a role).

Please accept my apologies for bringing in the John Deere 350 dozer into the thread; in reflection it was out of context.

 

[BrokenTrack]

One day I am going to build my own perfect tractor. I have operated many, many tractors and while I like them all, none are perfect in my opinion.

Tracks
Duel transmissions (1 automatic)
Hydraulic reverser
PTO
3 Point Hitch
Tracks (of course)
Decelerator pedal (where have they been on tractors for say...the past 100 years?)
Loader (4 way)

It is quite a bucket list, but I want to build one someday.

 

[ruffdog]

Ask the clutch slipping worker to search clutch replacement procedure pictures. Does he understand "splitting" a tractor?

 

[Farmer495]

Clutch slipping worker that sets hand throttle needs to be shown unemployment line. Tractor has foot throttle. Disconnect hand throttle unless you do PTO work.

Clutch to be engaged at lowest RPM possible.

I have NEVER had to set the hand throttle to pull away on flat hard ground with a loaded 4 wheel wagon in high range 1st in any tractor I've driven.

I haven't driven a 5055D, but drove a 5055E, so 9x3 instead of the 8x4. Could pull away in C1 no throttle towing nothing.

Never drove a crash box that couldn't be shifted on the fly if pulling a rolling load on a hard surface. 5055D is an H shift pattern right?

 

[marchanna]

My tractor痴 owner痴 manual instructs to set the engine at medium speed with the hand throttle then release the clutch. Except for indicating that it has a foot throttle, it doesn稚 even mention operating the tractor with the foot throttle.

It seems to me that my tractor is specifically designed to be operated with the engine set at operating speed using the hand throttle. I think saying someone should be shown the unemployment line for operating the tractor in this fashion is a little extreme.

There are a lot of tractors that don稚 have foot throttles and that do have loaders. It would be pretty difficult to do loader work if you have to manually throttle it up and down each time you stopped and changed direction.

 

[DK35vince]

Think I will continue using the foot throttle like I always have for forward/reversing, stopping/starting and loader work.
2100 hours , countless forward/reverses and hundreds of tons of loader work and I have yet to need the first clutch adjustment.
Look at a dry clutch for a car, truck and a tractor. Pretty much the same.
Nothing special about a tractor dry clutch.
Slip them they wear out faster, high RPM's while clutching will cause faster wear. Simple as that.

 

[goeduck]

Think I will continue using the foot throttle like I always have for forward/reversing, stopping/starting and loader work.
2100 hours , countless forward/reverses and hundreds of tons of loader work and I have yet to need the first clutch adjustment.
Look at a dry clutch for a car, truck and a tractor. Pretty much the same.
Nothing special about a tractor dry clutch.
Slip them they wear out faster, high RPM's while clutching will cause faster wear. Simple as that.

Exactly.

 

[KY Gun Geek]

I follow what you are trying to say.
But finish mowing and brush mowing in tight tricky areas I always use the foot throttle to slow down/speed up, forward/reverse as needed and it mows just fine.

I’m the op so I’ll hijack my own thread!

You guys started down a path with this discussion about mowing (more generally using pto equipment) and managing the clutch.

Well, as luck would have it (it is summer - we mow, and do very little stall mucking) this very discussion has come up.

So when using a batwing (rotary mower) on a gear tractor (not hst) how do you handle it? FYI These tractors have a lever to engage pto independent of trans clutch position. Competing approaches as follows:

Run hand throttle up to pto speed, engage pto, push in clutch, select gear and let clutch out, move forward. If you need to back up while driving, push in clutch, brake or coast to stop, pick reverse gear, let clutch out to back up (engine and pto still turning at rated speed).

Or

Engage pto at idle, push in clutch, select gear, let clutch out and move forward. Move hand throttle to full pto speed. To back up take over throttle control with foot, back down hand throttle. Back off foot throttle while pushing in clutch. Choose reverse gear, let clutch out, back up. If u need more pto rpm, pick a lower reverse gear.

My approach is the 2nd one. It minimizes the slipping of the trans clutch when the engine rpms are high. Ive heard 2 arguments for the first approach - cuz that’s the way daddy did it, and the pto drive line can’t take the speeding up and slowing down of the mower, so you want to keep it at a constant speed - constant engine rpm/constant throttle position - and manage the speed changes with the trans clutch.

Again, thanks a bunch for replies!

 

[crashz]

I've mowed for years in my 770 (little crash box trans) doing it your way (option 2). Mine has a dual stage clutch, but I could never feel comfortable trying to shift while only pushing part way down on the clutch. But the 2 stage allows the PTO to spin up a fraction of a second before you start moving.

I've never heard of the PTO drive-line not being able to spin up / down frequently with or without the throttle. The only exception would be when under full load (like dumping the mower in thick grass/bushes and trying to spin up to speed with a lot of resistance. I have stalled in in very heavy cutting, when trying to start the bush-hog. But the fix is not to throttle up first, its to find a clear area to start the mower and move into the heavy stuff.

 

[4570Man]

I engage pto clutches at as low as rpm is possible without stalling the engine.

 

[ptsg]

I also use a rotary mower with a shuttle shift tractor, however, we use chains instead of blades on the mower, which means that back down the throttle to change between forward/reverse will cause the chains on the mower to loose momentum, therefore won't shred the brush as good. So it's essential to keep the RPMs up.

I usually mow with the 540E gear on the PTO, which sets the engine RPM at around 1800-1900 RPM. I've now 100 hours on the tractor and I've yet to see any wear on the clutch and I do a lot of mowing that requires constant forward/reverse changes.

Most of the time, I change between forward/reverse with a quite fast movement of the clutch to prevent extra wear by keeping it slipping, unless I'm going in reverse close to a wall or ditch and I have to feather the clutch.

Here is an example of what I have to do sometimes. There is a big embankment right where I stop to move forward again.

Timelapse Branson mowing

 

[DK35vince]

I have been lawn mowing, brush mowing, tilling, Etc. for years using option 2.
Also been using the foot throttle to throttle up/down for years forward/reversing for snow plowing and hundreds of tons of loader work. 17 years 2140 hours and I haven't needed the first clutch adjustment yet.