Hard Starting Boomer - HELP

rambler · Apr 27, 2004

Ford/NH glowplug system & a can of ether can be a real bad combination, as others mention.

As the previous post mentions, you say it does this even with a warm engine??? A warm diesel that was just shut off in the last 10 minutes should not need glow or ether - should just fire right up. If this _only_ happens when the engine is stone cold then it is a glowplug problem. If it also happens to a warm/hot engine, you have other issues.

You said you changed fuel, did you change fuel filter as well? That usually is other symptoms, but it's cheap & something that causes problems.

Is your starter shot? Spendy little buggers.

But, to start a diesel engine only needs compression (worn engine if you are lacking), fuel (plugged filter, bad fuel, bad injectors/ pump) and heat (bad starter not spinning engine fast enough, cold engine).

Your problem is somewhere in that paragraph.

Fuel might be ok if it runs without a single problem once you get it going. I'd still replace the fuel & air filter, cheaper than other stuff coming up.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Compression problems would make a smokey exhaust & loss of power if bad enough, would think you would notice this.

If the engine does not start when hot then glow plug is a non-issue. (If the engine restarts fine when warm, then it's 98% a problem with the glow plugs...)

That leaves the starter not spinning the engine fast enough? Bad electrical connections, battery, or starter.

But I'm a simple dirt farmer, not a pro at this. I do know when a problem persists, just replacing or cleanning something one time is not enough - it happens often enough that the 'new' part is just as faulty as the one you took out.... At some point, revisit the connections, battery, etc.

--->Paul

AndyMA · Apr 27, 2004

( Re: Hard Starting Boomer - HELP [Re: djradz]
#416359 - 04/27/04 09:06 AM
Edit Reply Quote

Ford/NH glowplug system & a can of ether can be a real bad combination, as others mention.
As the previous post mentions, you say it does this even with a warm engine??? A warm diesel that was just shut off in the last 10 minutes should not need glow or ether - should just fire right up. If this _only_ happens when the engine is stone cold then it is a glowplug problem. If it also happens to a warm/hot engine, you have other issues.
You said you changed fuel, did you change fuel filter as well? That usually is other symptoms, but it's cheap & something that causes problems.
Is your starter shot? Spendy little buggers.
But, to start a diesel engine only needs compression (worn engine if you are lacking), fuel (plugged filter, bad fuel, bad injectors/ pump) and heat (bad starter not spinning engine fast enough, cold engine).
Your problem is somewhere in that paragraph.
)

I assume by compression you also mean the air. I've had a 2120, similar engine to 1925 since 1987 and never use the glow plugs to start except when cold in winter. Haven't used either on this engine, but many mechanics do, and it is not a problem as long as you don't use the glow plugs at same time. Where do you have throttle set when trying to start? As my 2120 has racked up the hours, i"ve found that I need to have it open about half way to start. Engine cranks, appears not to start, I let off key and then it starts and runs fine. Also some black smoke until it heats up. Do you have anything "bad" in your fuel? I would drain and replace fuel and put in about 4 times more diesel conditioner than normally recommended to help with any moisture or other crud in system. We started my Hitachi excavator last weekend, after it hadn't been run in over a year. Drained water (some one had poured in tank), filled tank (well put in 15 gallons in about a 65 gallon tank) and added a quart of Howes diseas fuel conditioner (enough for 400 gallons normally). Removed outer air filter and used either. Got it going, but still had problems. Added 10 gallons more fuel, and another quart of Howes. Runs fine now. I think your problem is a fuel related problem. could also be restricted air. Try starting with new fuel, and the air filters pulled.
good luck. You shouldn't need the glow plugs this time of year.

Andy

jinman · Apr 27, 2004

( dark smoke initially and then she runs fine for hours. If I turn her off the whole tough starting process starts all over again. )

Andy, if the problem was fuel, injector pump, or filters, I don't see how his tractor could "run fine for hours." On the other hand, if he shuts the tractor off and it's hard starting after cool-down or overnight, then I think it could be the glow plugs.

It just seems to me that if it had a fuel or filter problem, it would cough, spit, sputter, and snort smoke all the time.

Like you mentioned, if the tractor will not restart after immediately shutting it down, then the problem is somewhere else. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

kensfarm · Apr 27, 2004

If the fuel pump was going bad.. at low RPM's not enough fuel.. once it starts.. RPM's provide enough fuel. Can you
check by "fuel bleeding method" how much fuel is being pumped through when just cranking the engine?

I was told that using ether to start a diesal engine could cause the block to crack because it's more "explosive".. but I've seen my dad do this to start an old diesal tractor.. any one else heard of this?

Soundguy · Apr 27, 2004

( As my 2120 has racked up the hours, i"ve found that I need to have it open about half way to start. Engine cranks, appears not to start, I let off key and then it starts )

Yikes.. I hope this isn't in store for my 1920.. it's a 97 model. Starts on first lick.. with or without glow plugs... no smoke...

If I remember, I let the glow plugs go till they turn off.. however sometimes i forget and just turn the key.

I also run power service in it year round..

Soundguy

AndyMA · Apr 27, 2004

Ok Guys

I finally broke down and read the 1920 Service Manual. I suume it's close enough to the 1925 info.

Under "Engine Hard to Start"
Cause Remedy
1. Low Cranking speed 1. Check the cranking speed
2. Incorrect pump timing 2. Check the pump timing
3. Restricted fuel filter 3. Check and flush the fuel filter clean
4 .Contaminated fuel 4. Check for water in the fuel
5. Low compression 5. Check the engine compression
6. Air in system 6. Check for air leaks on the suction side of the system.

Engine Emits Black Smoke

1. Restricted air intake 1. Check for restricted air intake
2. Engine overheating 2. Check cooling system
3. Incorrect pump timing 3. Check the pump timing
4. Low compression 4. Check the engine compression
5. Incorrect engine timing 5. Check the engine valves

The interesting thing here is that the Causes that cause both problems are : Incorrect Pump Timing and Low compression
Might be a place to start.

Andy

AndyMA · Apr 27, 2004

I just gave it a little more thought (dangerous I know). I bet the problem is Low Compression. With low compression, the diesel fuel wouldn't get compressed enough to fire until aided by a little either. Once running it would emit black smoke until it warmed up and the parts expanded temporarly causing the compression to rise and creating a nice warm combustion chamber where it is easy to "clean burn" the fuel. When turned off even for a minute, the chamber will cool somewhat, again creating the situation where starting is difficult. The reason I don't think injector pump timing is off is because it it was I believe it would not run smooth when it warms up.

Andy

BillyP · Apr 27, 2004

If it were low compression, wouldn't the starter spin the engine faster? He says it turns over slower than it used to but how slow is slower? Doesn't sound like low compression to me but that doesn't me anything.

If it were turning over "real" slow that could cause this type of problem?

AndyMA · Apr 27, 2004

( If it were low compression, wouldn't the starter spin the engine faster? He says it turns over slower than it used to but how slow is slower? Doesn't sound like low compression to me but that doesn't me anything.

If it were turning over "real" slow that could cause this type of problem? )

You would think so wouldn't you. But how much faster would it crank? The Ford Service manual does state slow cranking speed as a starting issue but that doesn't explain the black smoke once it starts. Maybe if the black smoke is only for an instant, then it is just the excess fuel that built up do to the low cranking speed. The owner also stated that he had replaced, charged the battery. Hey I'm here to find out I am wrong, I just looked at the Ford troubleshooting charts and the only common item is low compression. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Maybe time to have a mechanic look at the machine. I'll go back to my manuals and see how to measure the engine compression.

Andy

AndyMA · Apr 27, 2004

According to my manual the compression test is done using the glow plug ports. You need a special pressure guage with a hose and a few adapters. You disable the fuel pump solenoid or otherwise turn off the fuel supply to the injectors and crank the engine.

On a 1920 the specs are 427 psi +/- 50 psi with all cylinders within 50 of each other. Maybe you can put down a deposit and borrow the tester from a New Holland dealer.

Andy