Has anyone built a pole building using "bookshelf construction method"?

[PoleBarnGuru]

POLEBARNGURU : Welcome!
Some good ideas in that post. I was already prepared to block between girts. Wiring, no problem, everything will be on the surface in conduit as I always do.
Count me as one of those people unwilling to double the girts too. My main reason for using the bookshelf system is ease of finish. And economy of materials of course. If I was willing to use double girts, I'd let the builder build using standard external girts, then I'd put a whole second set between like bookshelves, insulate between, and finally sheet internally. All the girts would be 2x4, and the builder's bill would be lower. But to my thinking, if using 2x6 laminated columns and 2x6 bookshelf girts (fully blocked), I am building with about as little amount of wood as possible (for a completly insulated and internally sheeted).
What is BIBS ? Sounds like maybe "blown in something something".
You did not mention Tyvek or similar -- assuming you would want to use this on the outside, and a vapor barrier on the inside just under the sheeting.
(quote) Most people are not willing to go through the effort of the double layer of girts, in which case, use a girt one size larger than the columns (2x8 on 6x6, etc.), setting the girt so 1-1/2" hangs past the exterior face of the column. You will find this installation method allows to compensate for any irregularities in the column dimensions and creates a deeper insulation cavity. Side benefits - electrical can be run around the outside of the columns, without the need to drill through them to run wires. On walls which are a multiple of 3' in length, it also saves having to rip the edge of a panel off either the first or last sheet of steel on the wall. (end quote)
This is interesting and I will think about it. At least you reminded me to add 2 inches to my plan in each direction, as I forgot about that last sheet covering 2 extra inches.

Glad to be able to contribute.

I would not recommend the use of 2x6 "laminated" columns, unless they are truly glu-lams. Nailing up three 2x6s together and calling it a "column" is not without some issues. Having tested them to failure at the University of Oregon Forest Products laboratory, we found the middle ply of 3 ply 2x6 columns fails far below the expected point. Why? Because the middle ply has twice as many nails into it.

We also found them to be very flexible in the "weak" direction (the 4-1/2" direction), so much so that it was nigh on impossible to hold the building still long enough to be able to square the building up, with the problems becoming progressively worse as the building eave height increases.

For information on BIBS insulation: Blow-In-Blanket Insulation System: Home Page This is not a product the company I work for has any financial connection to, or sells. It is just a great product.

Keep in mind house wraps have no R value, they create no thermal break. For about the same price, you can use reflective insulation. You get an R value, plus the product is great for helping to prevent heat gain. See Buy Reflective Insulation | Foil Insulation | Radiant Barrier | Vapor Barrier for lots of information and great prices.

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[PoleBarnGuru]

Duff, so the entire structure floats then? Can you do this on a large scale though? I always heard it was a poor idea to float a slab bigger than about a 24x24 garage. I will be building about 40x60x12. I am putting plenty of effort into the site under the floor, so possibly there will be very little stress due to frost movement if I am successful. So far: site chosen was not flat, so I excavated it to near flat, taking west side down 16 below original grade, removing most of the material that was dirt or clay. Built up east side about a foot using gravel and dirt mixture (old driveway bed), packing and spreading in sub-one inch layers. The site has since had several hard rains and a day with a sprinkler running on it. It still has slope, out the east end, about 1 inch per ten feet. There will be perimeter drain tile laid down now, then I will be putting back in crushed rock type fill, about 16 inches on the uphill end, and up to 24 inches deep on the lower end (so it actually has a level top surface). At that point I could proceed as is customary, setting poles. Or could deviate to your plan of pouring concrete and set poles on the slab later. I wonder, do you have any more detail photos or drawing of the slab thickness at the edge and pole locations, etc? And, is that a comercial product bracket that mates the laminated pole to the slab? Thanks for anything you offer. I am near Rochester MN if you want to make a visit. hehehe

For some unknown reason floating slabs seem to be very popular in Wisconsin. The entire concept is entirely contrary to common sense. Why construct a slab which does not extend below the frost line, then attach a building to it structurally?

The entire object of a floating slab is to be able to move on top of the surface of the soil. Frost heaves do not happen uniformly, so there is a more than possible probability of the slab heaving and not returning to a level point. In which case, you now have a building which is out of level.

Enough research has been done to be able to take measures which will prevent frost heave issues by proper site preparation as well as by correct column embedment.

By placing the base of the columns below the frost line, making the diameter of the bottom of the columns wider than the top, and encasing the lower portion of the column in concrete, frost heave issues with the columns can be minimized, or totally eliminated.

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

Yes the entire thing floats. I had always heard the same thing about the 24 x 24. We have gone as big as 40 x 64 x 14 and wouldn't think twice about going bigger. Sorry I don't have any drawings but the slab was 6" thick with 1/2" rebar 2" oc. with a extra 5-6' pieces 1' oc perpendicular to the perimeter. The first 4 bars parallel to the perimeter was also 1' oc. The slab edge was 16" thick in ~16" with 2 extra runs of bar in that. Posts are 8' oc.

The steel bracket is just made at a welders fab shop.

I could be there in a few hours.

Steel brackets fabricated at a welding shop will not meet the requirements of the building codes.

There are commercially available brackets, which are designed to be used in post frame buildings. Due to the loads imposed upon the building (uplift and overturning), a registered design professional should be utilized to confirm the adequacy of the brackets for your particular intended use.

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[PoleBarnGuru]

As far as concrete slabs go, I just poured one last year in central Texas that was 60 x 80. In Florida, I know a house slab was 90' long and 30' wide with additional bump-outs. There are some that are bigger. And of course there are the commercial warehouse buildings with a concrete floor - not sure if it's a monolithic pour. An airplane taxiway was about 40' by 600' in a monolithic pour. I say this to let you know that whatever slab size you choose to do can be done as a floating monolithic pour (at least in the south) - I do not know what kind of ground prep you'll need for freeze concerns.

The 60x80 was for a metal barn - essentially I beams for poles and they were bolted to the concrete slab.

As for insulation, you may want to check on the feasibiliy of spray on foam instead of the batt type insulation. You might find it to be cost effective.

Quality spray on foam insulation is going to be far more expensive than fiberglass batts.

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[PoleBarnGuru]

Great observation, never thought about this. It's just like an ice lens on a foundation picking the whole thing up. I'm building a large barn later this year, had planned to use a skirt board, but now I'm thinking twice. It will have gravel floor, so no option for attaching to slab.

Having a pressure treated skirt (splash) board is not going to cause a frost heave situation as long as the columns are properly embedded below the frost line. I've been involved in thousands of projects in "deep frost" areas, and never experienced any heave issues, when the buildings have been properly constructed.

In order to properly transfer the shear loads from the roof, through the endwalls, and into the ground, requires a properly sized and connected skirt board. Trying to build without, is probably not the best choice.

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[jimgerken]

I believe the floating slabs popularity in WI stems from the soil there. It is amazing how much more sand they have compared to our clay. Sand drains well of course, so less frost pressure than in clay soils. I once visited a home in WI that had the deck posts set on those little 10 inch square precast pyramid blocks, right on the sand ground in the backyard. I asked, but was told everyone was doing them that way, setting on sand it works fine they said.
My project will use a rubble trench perimeter, so essentially will act as a footed structure, without all the concrete below the surface. The thickened edge slab will not float from frost due to the rubble trench. There will be 24 inches (deep) of 2"-3" rock in a trench 16 inches wide all around under the thickened edge, and 16 inches of good draining fill under the floor. The bottom of the trench will be four feet below final grade and have a drainage tile tube in it plumbed with slope out to daylight.
Yes, I agree with the statement that "embedded poles will not cause problems". Recently I re-did a bldg that was built in 1974. First I inspected the pressure treated 6x6 poles. I dug with a backhoe down to the bottom of 1/3 of the poles. I found very little rot, certainly no concern even though I had been warned "they would be rotted off". They had been set on a poured-in-the-hole concrete bases. All the grade plank had fallen off presumably from frost pressure over the years. One pole was full of ants, even though it was pressure treated.
On this new project however, my goal with trying the method of setting the poles on the concrete slab instead of imbedded in the ground is this: I am trying to end up with a building that has a floor and walls that either don't move seasonally or move together when they do move. Embedded poles and a floating concrete floor do not fit this requirement. I want doors that fit all winter, I want interior walls that can attach to the floor and the exterior walls and the ceiling just like real interior walls should. I want a warm floor with radiant heat tubing in it, well insulated so it heats cheap. When putting this much extra investment in the floor slab (the RFH tube and associated), a simple floating slab seems to me to be a shortcut. Also, it must be a "pole building" which in my county for tax puposes means it uses poles and pole building siding and roofing.
Laminated columns, I am not committed to them. I have always used 6x6 poles before, was considering the laminated on this project, you have made me have to re-think this, thanks. The nice part of the laminated is that they don't get so twisted when they dry. 6x6 poles can sometimes get really wacky.
Buy Reflective Insulation | Foil Insulation | Radiant Barrier | Vapor Barrier
Doesn't the steel siding already supply a long-wave (infrared) reflective function? I understand the other possible value, the thermal break, that Tyvek would not provide. I wonder how much it really amounts to though once the screws are tightened and it smashes in there. ???

 

[PoleBarnGuru]

Our office building is on the South Dakota side of Lake Traverse, South Dakota - where we have a five foot deep frost line.

We designed a post frame building with embedded columns and have a floating slab with radiant in floor heat. All of the topsoil was removed from the site and replaced with properly compacted fill. Columns were embedded below the frost line and a concrete collar was poured around the bottom of the columns.

The building has radiant in floor heat, in a monolithic floating slab, over sand, over A2V insulation.

Although roads in our area experience huge amounts of frost heave, we have never had a single issue over seven winters.

On column rot, prior to the early 1980s, pressure treaters were allowed to treat lumber to "or refusal" which basically amounted to CCA untreatable species of wood (with DouglasFir and SPF the major culprits) being effectively painted green. Some of these columns have and will continue to prematurely decay - much earlier than the columns being treated to current standards.

"Nailed up" laminated columns will both warp and twist. If you are looking to reduce this potential, and cost is not an object, glu-laminated columns are most certainly the way to go.

The manufacturers of reflective insulation claim the product to be good for a 20 degree differential inside the structure, as opposed to non-insulated. We used it in the roof of our own office building and are convinced it has made a significant difference.

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[BeezFun]

In order to properly transfer the shear loads from the roof, through the endwalls, and into the ground, requires a properly sized and connected skirt board. Trying to build without, is probably not the best choice.
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Don't understand how skirt boards resist shear. They're 6" wide and usually have 2 nails per column. Shear walls need to be large panels to resist shear, like the prefab (usually steel) things they sell for use in California. Or are you talking about some other shear load?

 

[BeezFun]

I would not recommend the use of 2x6 "laminated" columns, unless they are truly glu-lams. Nailing up three 2x6s together and calling it a "column" is not without some issues. Having tested them to failure at the University of Oregon Forest Products laboratory, we found the middle ply of 3 ply 2x6 columns fails far below the expected point. Why? Because the middle ply has twice as many nails into it.

We also found them to be very flexible in the "weak" direction (the 4-1/2" direction), so much so that it was nigh on impossible to hold the building still long enough to be able to square the building up, with the problems becoming progressively worse as the building eave height increases.
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Interesting, tell me more. So the best option is to choose a solid column that is sufficient length? That can be hard to work with for tall buildings, especially for DIY.

 

[BeezFun]

Columns were embedded below the frost line and a concrete collar was poured around the bottom of the columns.

How about setting them on precast pills? Is the poured concrete to resist uplift? Do you hold the post up off the bottom of the hole for the pour?