Has the economy affected you and your tractors?

[hawkhart]

Owning GM and Chrysler isn't Fascism?

Before take off, please place your tray in the full upright position, fasten your seatbelt and ensure your tinfoil hat completely covers your head.:laughing:

No, it's not. It's an "investment", the cost of 30 years of Reaganomics, and dumb decisions. It does suck, but fascism it isn't. Maybe it's fascism's second cousin.

My hats are usually wool, cold here at night. But, if it was made of tinfoil, you can bet that the producer never really paid for the true cost of making it, as noted here:

ALCOA Alarming Record on Pollution
nbsp;utwatch.org, US Water News Online, minesandcommunities.org

Alcoa, Inc. is one of the worst polluters on the planet. They are at the forefront of poisoning the air, land and water of Texas, the most heavily polluted state in the nation. Alcoa has grandfathered facilities exempt from the 1971 Clean Air Act. In Texas alone, it has several hundred plants that are accountable for the mounting pollution problems of the state.

Aloca Sandow Plant located near Rockdale, Texas
Rockdale, Texas, located around 50 miles east of Austin, is home to a plant that sprawls over 7,000 acres and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is powered by four on-site power plants, three of which were built before the Clean Air Act of 1971 was approved. It contributes to the pollution problems in Austin and the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. The aluminum smelter here discharges roughly 104,000 tons of air emissions per year, including over 60,000 tons of acid rain. Alcoa says that if it were forced to comply with state and national clean air laws, the alterations in equipment would be so expensive that the company would be forced to shut down the Rockdale plant; instead of doing this, they keep the plant running and contaminate the area. Between the years 1983 to 1987 at a time when they were under scrutiny to maintain clean facilities, Alcoa spent $62 million to upgrade their facilities without consent from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) nor the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC), blatantly violating federal law. Large increases in air pollution ensued in 1988, including nitrous oxides, particulate matter (which contain human carcinogens), carbon monoxide, and an annual increase of 13,000 tons of sulfur dioxide since completion of the modifications. Although Alcoa blatantly violated federal law, neither the EPA nor the TNRCC pressed charges.

Since 1987, more than forty-seven Alcoa facilities have been cited for pollution violations by state and federal regulators. In one instance when the EPA opposed Alcoa, they along with the Justice Department filed claims against the company as reported March 14, 2000. In the agreement, Alcoa consented to pay about $8.8 million to clean the Mississippi River Basin, reduce hazardous waste generation, and research new air pollution reduction technology.

In Port Allen, LA, Discovery Aluminas, Inc., an Alcoa subsidiary, pleaded guilty to contaminating the water and was fined over one million dollars by the state and the federal government. In Point Comfort, TX, Alcoa was fined $181,400 for emission violations in its bauxite refining plant.

Alcoa was also cited for illegal export practices. They shipped potassium fluoride and sodium fluoride to Jamaica and Suriname on 50 separate occasions without obtaining the required Commerce export licenses, then lied about it. They were hit with a $750,000 civil penalty.
Source- UT Watch on the Web

Alcoa to pay $550,000 settlement for water pollution at Indiana plant
LAFAYETTE, Ind. Alcoa Inc. will pay $550,000 to settle a federal lawsuit alleging the aluminum maker's aerospace products plant violated water pollution limits. Source-U.S. Water News Online February 2002

Mining company fined for air pollution
December 23, 2004

ABC News-A Perth magistrate has imposed a $60,000 fine on mining company Alcoa for polluting the air around its Wagerup refinery. Alcoa pleaded guilty to the pollution charge that related to Bauxite residue dust blowing over Wagerup and Yarloop, south of Perth, in November 2002.

Source - Mines and Communities: Home

 

[hawkhart]

:thumbsup: .... But I'm not so sanguine hawkhart.

I understand, optimism helps me do what needs to be done I guess.

 

[_RaT_]

I love my country, but unfortunately, we are going to have a harder time of that, because the entity that can address those needs, government, is viewed with distrust by so many.

Oh gosh, if you only knew, if you only knew. If you are trusting, you are not paying attention. What little trust I have would be overwhelmed by more distrust if we were privy to all that goes on. We have little journalistic reporting in the US anymore, we have media that supports its team. Much of my family is/was in government and they don't trust it.

 

[_RaT_]

No, it's not. It's an "investment", the cost of 30 years of Reaganomics, and dumb decisions. It does suck, but fascism it isn't. Maybe it's fascism's second cousin.

My hats are usually wool, cold here at night. But, if it was made of tinfoil, you can bet that the producer never really paid for the true cost of making it, as noted here:

ALCOA Alarming Record on Pollution
nbsp;utwatch.org, US Water News Online, minesandcommunities.org

Alcoa, Inc. is one of the worst polluters on the planet. They are at the forefront of poisoning the air, land and water of Texas, the most heavily polluted state in the nation. Alcoa has grandfathered facilities exempt from the 1971 Clean Air Act. In Texas alone, it has several hundred plants that are accountable for the mounting pollution problems of the state.

Aloca Sandow Plant located near Rockdale, Texas
Rockdale, Texas, located around 50 miles east of Austin, is home to a plant that sprawls over 7,000 acres and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is powered by four on-site power plants, three of which were built before the Clean Air Act of 1971 was approved. It contributes to the pollution problems in Austin and the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. The aluminum smelter here discharges roughly 104,000 tons of air emissions per year, including over 60,000 tons of acid rain. Alcoa says that if it were forced to comply with state and national clean air laws, the alterations in equipment would be so expensive that the company would be forced to shut down the Rockdale plant; instead of doing this, they keep the plant running and contaminate the area. Between the years 1983 to 1987 at a time when they were under scrutiny to maintain clean facilities, Alcoa spent $62 million to upgrade their facilities without consent from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) nor the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC), blatantly violating federal law. Large increases in air pollution ensued in 1988, including nitrous oxides, particulate matter (which contain human carcinogens), carbon monoxide, and an annual increase of 13,000 tons of sulfur dioxide since completion of the modifications. Although Alcoa blatantly violated federal law, neither the EPA nor the TNRCC pressed charges.

Since 1987, more than forty-seven Alcoa facilities have been cited for pollution violations by state and federal regulators. In one instance when the EPA opposed Alcoa, they along with the Justice Department filed claims against the company as reported March 14, 2000. In the agreement, Alcoa consented to pay about $8.8 million to clean the Mississippi River Basin, reduce hazardous waste generation, and research new air pollution reduction technology.

In Port Allen, LA, Discovery Aluminas, Inc., an Alcoa subsidiary, pleaded guilty to contaminating the water and was fined over one million dollars by the state and the federal government. In Point Comfort, TX, Alcoa was fined $181,400 for emission violations in its bauxite refining plant.

Alcoa was also cited for illegal export practices. They shipped potassium fluoride and sodium fluoride to Jamaica and Suriname on 50 separate occasions without obtaining the required Commerce export licenses, then lied about it. They were hit with a $750,000 civil penalty.
Source- UT Watch on the Web

Alcoa to pay $550,000 settlement for water pollution at Indiana plant
LAFAYETTE, Ind. Alcoa Inc. will pay $550,000 to settle a federal lawsuit alleging the aluminum maker's aerospace products plant violated water pollution limits. Source-U.S. Water News Online February 2002

Mining company fined for air pollution
December 23, 2004

ABC News-A Perth magistrate has imposed a $60,000 fine on mining company Alcoa for polluting the air around its Wagerup refinery. Alcoa pleaded guilty to the pollution charge that related to Bauxite residue dust blowing over Wagerup and Yarloop, south of Perth, in November 2002.

Source - Mines and Communities: Home

Why not just source MoveOn.org and prove all your points at once? We all believe everything there? Your posts without doubt make me so suspicious of all you post. Where's the ignore button?

 

[_RaT_]

No, it's not. It's an "investment", the cost of 30 years of Reaganomics, and dumb decisions. It does suck, but fascism it isn't. Maybe it's fascism's second cousin.

My hats are usually wool, cold here at night. But, if it was made of tinfoil, you can bet that the producer never really paid for the true cost of making it, as noted here:

ALCOA Alarming Record on Pollution
nbsp;utwatch.org, US Water News Online, minesandcommunities.org

Alcoa, Inc. is one of the worst polluters on the planet. They are at the forefront of poisoning the air, land and water of Texas, the most heavily polluted state in the nation. Alcoa has grandfathered facilities exempt from the 1971 Clean Air Act. In Texas alone, it has several hundred plants that are accountable for the mounting pollution problems of the state.

Aloca Sandow Plant located near Rockdale, Texas
Rockdale, Texas, located around 50 miles east of Austin, is home to a plant that sprawls over 7,000 acres and runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is powered by four on-site power plants, three of which were built before the Clean Air Act of 1971 was approved. It contributes to the pollution problems in Austin and the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. The aluminum smelter here discharges roughly 104,000 tons of air emissions per year, including over 60,000 tons of acid rain. Alcoa says that if it were forced to comply with state and national clean air laws, the alterations in equipment would be so expensive that the company would be forced to shut down the Rockdale plant; instead of doing this, they keep the plant running and contaminate the area. Between the years 1983 to 1987 at a time when they were under scrutiny to maintain clean facilities, Alcoa spent $62 million to upgrade their facilities without consent from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) nor the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC), blatantly violating federal law. Large increases in air pollution ensued in 1988, including nitrous oxides, particulate matter (which contain human carcinogens), carbon monoxide, and an annual increase of 13,000 tons of sulfur dioxide since completion of the modifications. Although Alcoa blatantly violated federal law, neither the EPA nor the TNRCC pressed charges.

Since 1987, more than forty-seven Alcoa facilities have been cited for pollution violations by state and federal regulators. In one instance when the EPA opposed Alcoa, they along with the Justice Department filed claims against the company as reported March 14, 2000. In the agreement, Alcoa consented to pay about $8.8 million to clean the Mississippi River Basin, reduce hazardous waste generation, and research new air pollution reduction technology.

In Port Allen, LA, Discovery Aluminas, Inc., an Alcoa subsidiary, pleaded guilty to contaminating the water and was fined over one million dollars by the state and the federal government. In Point Comfort, TX, Alcoa was fined $181,400 for emission violations in its bauxite refining plant.

Alcoa was also cited for illegal export practices. They shipped potassium fluoride and sodium fluoride to Jamaica and Suriname on 50 separate occasions without obtaining the required Commerce export licenses, then lied about it. They were hit with a $750,000 civil penalty.
Source- UT Watch on the Web

Alcoa to pay $550,000 settlement for water pollution at Indiana plant
LAFAYETTE, Ind. Alcoa Inc. will pay $550,000 to settle a federal lawsuit alleging the aluminum maker's aerospace products plant violated water pollution limits. Source-U.S. Water News Online February 2002

Mining company fined for air pollution
December 23, 2004

ABC News-A Perth magistrate has imposed a $60,000 fine on mining company Alcoa for polluting the air around its Wagerup refinery. Alcoa pleaded guilty to the pollution charge that related to Bauxite residue dust blowing over Wagerup and Yarloop, south of Perth, in November 2002.

Source - Mines and Communities: Home

Why choose just those companies? Why not Jays lawnmower repair, why not Lehman brothers. Chrysler is not even an American company.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Well at least this time I went to WallyWorld my thread didn't get nixed!
BTW I think I figured out why you guys back east, are so morose, You don't have InNOut Burger. A couple of DoubleDouble's and we will have you on the course to conservatism and contentment.
Okay now to the commentary :
See Dave you NEVER do know who you are talking to on the internet
If you are speaking of the technical term in economics, "externalities" I would agree that there can be costs and
impacts on "non involved" parties, However, Shall we examine why the "costs" were imposed on the 'Non-involved" parties.
Someone mentioned the cost to society of a Burger King or a Big mac and the increased cost to society referenced by an increase in heart disease etc.
My question would be, why is the cost borne by society?
Because some politician has decided that some group of people or soon all groups of people are deserving of health care.
The same way that the "crisis" in the housing market is now a moral hazard to society. Did I agree that people who didn't have any money down, should be able to buy a $500,000 house. No. Did I agree that someone who smokes,uses illicit drugs,has various illicit rendezvous,
should some how benefit from my taxes. No.
Another point was made was vis a vis taxes and whether
we should pay for the services that we receive.
Although we all B&M about the amount of tax we pay, I have no problem with being taxed for the services that I receive, schools, police, fire, library services etc etc., what I have a problem with is the Federal government imposing taxes on various aspects of my life that they are prohibited by the Constitution from doing!
As like me, you are an admirer of the Framers and the amount of foresight that they had, surely you must agree that we stand at the precipice of what the Founders were so frightened of: An all Powerful Federal Government.
In virtually ever amendment to the Constitution, the government is restricted in its dealings with its citizens,
The citizen is sovereign, NOT the government.
Again, externalities of bad economic decisions, need not, and should not be imposed of the citizens of this country.

 

[_RaT_]

"As like me, you are an admirer of the Framers and the amount of foresight that they had, surely you must agree that we stand at the precipice of what the Founders were so frightened of: An all Powerful Federal Government."

Hey, count me in! :thumbsup:

 

[hawkhart]

Why not just source MoveOn.org and prove all your points at once? We all believe everything there? Your posts without doubt make me so suspicious of all you post. Where's the ignore button?

Well, ignore away, scroll fast if it makes you feel better. Facts are facts, I did not create them. Alcoa, the maker of my tinfoil hat, is probably just misunderstood by all those whiny, sissy towns and states that ought to enjoy being poisoned more, after all, they got the jobs, right?

My point was only that products have costs that are not reflected in their prices, and that the producers don't pay for, despite all those later, misguided, lawsuits and fines. Alcoa laughed all the way to the bank, until 2007 anyway when they fell off the cliff, check the stock chart since '65. Their profits were only marginally impacted by all the efforts to get them to pay for the damage their activities also caused, while making useful products. That has been part of this discussion this afternoon/evening. Why, when facts show up, is someone all of a sudden getting a label?

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Why choose just those companies? Why not Jays lawnmower repair, why not Lehman brothers. Chrysler is not even an American company.

I'm going to guess that when an article starts out "Alcoa Inc is one of the worst polluters on the planet" we are not exactly looking at an unbiased writer.
And if you are looking to the fact that a company or person was fined or punished for breaking some regulation, let me ask a question of you;
Tom Delay,the former speaker of the House was thrown out of his leadership positionin 2005, because he was "INDITED" for
campaign financing irregularities.
What was the outcome of that indictment? If you know.

 

[hawkhart]

I'm going to guess that when an article starts out "Alcoa Inc is one of the worst polluters on the planet" we are not exactly looking at an unbiased writer.
And if you are looking to the fact that a company or person was fined or punished for breaking some regulation, let me ask a question of you;
Tom Delay,the former speaker of the House was thrown out of his leadership positionin 2005, because he was "INDITED" for
campaign financing irregularities.
What was the outcome of that indictment? If you know.

You know, biases of that writer aside, Alcoa's probably in the club, don't you think? The rest was just, history.

Dancing Tom? Isn't he still under indictment for money laundering or criminal obnoxiousness or something? Whenever I see him on TV talking he seems to have been into the pickle juice. I know he still likes blaming poor folks for being poor, which, as has been stated, is costly to be these days. Do you have the inside scoop? After this, I have to hit the hay. Thanks for the chatting, stimulating to the mind, while my body rested today.:thumbsup: