Has the economy affected you and your tractors?

Status
Not open for further replies.
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #161  
1*I would like to see state sales taxes eliminated and replaced with state income taxes.
2*Property taxes.... yikes! Paying taxes on something you paid for with money you already paid taxes on just seems wrong. :mad:
1*Ohio never had an income tax for years an years just sales tax.
Ohio never replaced the sales tax= just added the income tax.:mad:
2* Don't get me started on them .:(:(
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #162  
Well Stated!
But I think I see a flaw in your logic,
The East India company was a wholly owned subsidiary of the British Government, The Original Tea Partiers were not so much protesting a corporate decision, as they were against a TAX imposed on them, that they had no decision over. Does that sound familiar?
I think you and I are on common ground as to the inequities of the tax code and the power that it gives politicians, Again, how about a flat tax that would take away from the politicians the power to help their friends and punish their enemies.
BTW Welcome to TBN.

Thanks, and for the welcome, too. We all must be having a quiet Sunday afternoon. Yesterday, I worked my butt off cleaning the garage, 8 hours on concrete. Today, until my fam gets home soon, my feet are up.:thumbsup:

Yes, it is familiar. I understand the distinction, and the things they were protesting. But, I guess I say, if not for the existence of the East India Company, would there have been any imposed tax? The government, serving the economic interest of the company (and, it's own), advanced it's interest to the detriment of colonists. It had done this in many spheres, including, for example, not allowing the manufacture of goods, like some clothing, in the colonies. If the India company did not exist, would tea taxes have played the same? Would our servicemen and women be in "The Royal" something or other today? History might have played differently if the British were more forbearing, and less beholden to the economic powers in their country that, to that point, controlled large parts of the world. The tea protesters were in fact upset with a corporate favoritism policy, where the companies interests were woven with the kings.

We all want a say in policies that affect us, and in this country fortunately, we can do that by and large. But also, conversely, if government fails to control unrestrained economic thievery, like for example folks paying for insurance coverage they never get, or lose because they get sick or hurt, then we call for government to address that problem even though the companies, those particular economic conglomerations, want to be free to continue to collect money for services they strive to never provide, or provide stingily, to maximize their profits. In health care, that hasn't worked, and so we are where we are. When any of us pay taxes we don't like, OR get screwed by companies that could care less, or worse, when both of these things get combined somehow, we get annoyed and, sometimes, we fight it. For me, I find fighting government easier mostly, because CEO's just have you arrested, where politicians have to usually let you have your say. Of course, when government just wants to disappear you, something we used to think America never did, we are screwed. (We need habeas corpus back again.) The problem is biggest where the corporate, or economic interest IS the government interest, and the government just lets them have their way, and even actively aids and abets their power to do what they want to us. Anyway, that's how I see it.

And as to a flat tax, I am just not informed enough to have an opinion on that. Tax details and their effects are not my area mostly. But the removal from politics of some of the influence of money, at least overtly, through election campaign reform, I am all for. But we seem to actually be going the other way, now that all the companies providing me services are apparently "people" that can give money to electing pols without limit. If we re-instituted a "draft", how will Wal-Mart serve? Can Exxon run for the Senate? That decision, applied logically, ends up with some truly bad results.:confused2: Thanks for this discussion, it's an interesting one.:thumbsup:
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #163  
Thanks, and for the welcome, too. We all must be having a quiet Sunday afternoon. Yesterday, I worked my butt off cleaning the garage, 8 hours on concrete. Today, until my fam gets home soon, my feet are up.:thumbsup:

Yes, it is familiar. I understand the distinction, and the things they were protesting. But, I guess I say, if not for the existence of the East India Company, would there have been any imposed tax? The government, serving the economic interest of the company (and, it's own), advanced it's interest to the detriment of colonists. It had done this in many spheres, including, for example, not allowing the manufacture of goods, like some clothing, in the colonies. If the India company did not exist, would tea taxes have played the same? Would our servicemen and women be in "The Royal" something or other today? History might have played differently if the British were more forbearing, and less beholden to the economic powers in their country that, to that point, controlled large parts of the world. The tea protesters were in fact upset with a corporate favoritism policy, where the companies interests were woven with the kings.

We all want a say in policies that affect us, and in this country fortunately, we can do that by and large. But also, conversely, if government fails to control unrestrained economic thievery, like for example folks paying for insurance coverage they never get, or lose because they get sick or hurt, then we call for government to address that problem even though the companies, those particular economic conglomerations, want to be free to continue to collect money for services they strive to never provide, or provide stingily, to maximize their profits. In health care, that hasn't worked, and so we are where we are. When any of us pay taxes we don't like, OR get screwed by companies that could care less, or worse, when both of these things get combined somehow, we get annoyed and, sometimes, we fight it. For me, I find fighting government easier mostly, because CEO's just have you arrested, where politicians have to usually let you have your say. Of course, when government just wants to disappear you, something we used to think America never did, we are screwed. (We need habeas corpus back again.) The problem is biggest where the corporate, or economic interest IS the government interest, and the government just lets them have their way, and even actively aids and abets their power to do what they want to us. Anyway, that's how I see it.

And as to a flat tax, I am just not informed enough to have an opinion on that. Tax details and their effects are not my area mostly. But the removal from politics of some of the influence of money, at least overtly, through election campaign reform, I am all for. But we seem to actually be going the other way, now that all the companies providing me services are apparently "people" that can give money to electing pols without limit. If we re-instituted a "draft", how will Wal-Mart serve? Can Exxon run for the Senate? That decision, applied logically, ends up with some truly bad results.:confused2: Thanks for this discussion, it's an interesting one.:thumbsup:

Back when I went to school(Yes I DID have to walk 10 miles AND fight off the dinosaurs) I was taught that when corporate interests and government interests intersected and became one, that was called Fascism.
Now I may be wrong,(and correct me if I am)but to date, I don't know of any corporate interest that can impose a TAX on me.
They can cajole, entice, advertise,lobby,give campaign donations etc etc.
But only government has the ability and the power to tax me.
And along with that power goes the police power to imprison me if I don't pay my taxes.
Last time I checked WallyWorld couldn't throw me in the clink if I didn't buy my requisite amount of Pecan Smoked Sausage(Darn that stuff is good):)
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #164  
Back when I went to school(Yes I DID have to walk 10 miles AND fight off the dinosaurs) I was taught that when corporate interests and government interests intersected and became one, that was called Fascism.
Now I may be wrong,(and correct me if I am)but to date, I don't know of any corporate interest that can impose a TAX on me.
They can cajole, entice, advertise,lobby,give campaign donations etc etc.
But only government has the ability and the power to tax me.
And along with that power goes the police power to imprison me if I don't pay my taxes.
Last time I checked WallyWorld couldn't throw me in the clink if I didn't buy my requisite amount of Pecan Smoked Sausage(Darn that stuff is good):)

I think your definition of "Fascism" I agree with. Which is why the current government, at least where it is opposing some, not all, corporate interests, isn't that.

I understand, I get it really, that "tax' thing, and state power to collect them or impose penalties of some sort, well if that is your primary issue, thats your battle. My taxes go to useful things I need and use, roads and schools and the Marines, and lots that I don't. "Having" to pay 'em can be upsetting, and is to lots. Don't pay 'em, trouble eventually shows up. The government power is certainly there in a special way.

But, other really big trouble can show up, too. Maybe Wally World can't put you into the big house, but United Healthcare or Blue Cross or Assurant, can throw you and your kids into the street even if you always paid up faithfully, year after year, if they just say "denied" and wear you out. The credit card companies, banks, even the phone companies, etc., can ruin your credit if you say peep to their fees and rates raised at their whim, despite always being on time. Some companies can kill you knowingly, like big tobacco, or Toyota maybe, and lie about it 'till doomsday, or you can't afford the oxygen delivery service anymore, because your benefits "don't cover that in this instance". Government can get you with taxes, and it can let the companies that own it shred your life if anything's left. I want the government to lessen those things, AND tax reasonably, which means, to me, the poorer you are, the less you pay. Others see it differently.
Gee, I'm getting depressed. Probably should stop now, and go get some Sausage!:licking: Those guys at Wally's entrance last I was there were giving me the evil eye.:laughing:
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #165  
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what the hey:
WHAT is true cost capture?
And if I have no future in eekonmics, how about me being an ecdysiast?:)

Jeez, you made me google that one. Well, here on the internet, you could be a lissome heartbreaker posing as a fun to talk to older male. So, I just can't ascertain your artistic abilities via virtual space. :) No, we aren't going to meet at Motel 6 - unless you really are the female variety of the former. :laughing::laughing:

To my understanding, true costs would be the inclusion of all actual and attributable costs associated with a product or service in the price. If that were more common, the market would value products and services differently. The expensive items would get weeded out.

The BigBurger coronary surcharge is a reasonable example. If your bypass operation costs $75,000 and that were added to the price of a BigBurger (one per week for 50 years = 2,600 BigBurgers. $75,000 divided by 2600 = $28.85 coronary surcharge per BigBurger).

The BigBurger and the like, are foods sold very cheaply that really aren't very good for us and can lead to high medical costs. Those true costs are nowhere apparent in the price of the food. Would we be eating a BigBurger each week at $30 + each? Probably not. But we are paying for the bypass surgeries.

Another example might be the true cost of bananas from Columbia. The US spends piles of money in the state department and military aid areas that never show up in the banana prices. Without that 'aid' Mr. Chiquita and Mr. Dole would have to rethink their business plans.

Nobody is certain what the true costs of burning fossil fuels are, but many suspect it goes well beyond the commodity prices paid.

Farm chemicals are another example. Does the cost of a gallon of Atrazine include the cost to remediate contaminated water wells? I think not. Do we even understand the downstream costs of prolific chemical use? No we don't really.

What is the true cost of a family with five kids moving into a school district? It's alot more than their parents will pay forever, or a very long time, to support schools.

Speaking of kids, what causes all the recent autism? We don't know, but we know for sure nobody paid for it if it is environment or food related.
Dave.
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #166  
Jeez, you made me google that one. Well, here on the internet, you could be a lissome heartbreaker posing as a fun to talk to older male. So, I just can't ascertain your artistic abilities via virtual space. :) No, we aren't going to meet at Motel 6 - unless you really are the female variety of the former. :laughing::laughing:

To my understanding, true costs would be the inclusion of all actual and attributable costs associated with a product or service in the price. If that were more common, the market would value products and services differently. The expensive items would get weeded out.

The BigBurger coronary surcharge is a reasonable example. If your bypass operation costs $75,000 and that were added to the price of a BigBurger (one per week for 50 years = 2,600 BigBurgers. $75,000 divided by 2600 = $28.85 coronary surcharge per BigBurger).

The BigBurger and the like, are foods sold very cheaply that really aren't very good for us and can lead to high medical costs. Those true costs are nowhere apparent in the price of the food. Would we be eating a BigBurger each week at $30 + each? Probably not. But we are paying for the bypass surgeries.

Another example might be the true cost of bananas from Columbia. The US spends piles of money in the state department and military aid areas that never show up in the banana prices. Without that 'aid' Mr. Chiquita and Mr. Dole would have to rethink their business plans.

Nobody is certain what the true costs of burning fossil fuels are, but many suspect it goes well beyond the commodity prices paid.

Farm chemicals are another example. Does the cost of a gallon of Atrazine include the cost to remediate contaminated water wells? I think not. Do we even understand the downstream costs of prolific chemical use? No we don't really.

What is the true cost of a family with five kids moving into a school district? It's alot more than their parents will pay forever, or a very long time, to support schools.

Speaking of kids, what causes all the recent autism? We don't know, but we know for sure nobody paid for it if it is environment or food related.
Dave.

It was you that got me started here today, for some pleasant discusssions. Thanks.:thumbsup: Again, you are spot on. The discovery of external costs not borne by producers is key to so much of what our society and world fights about these days. Some specific populations/groups often bear these costs, and when they gripe about them and seek to change things, are derided as whiners or socialists or something else, because they are doing things that change that cost equation to the perceived detriment of those that so far sucessfully avoided paying them by shifting them elsewhere. But overall, in lots of cases, the jig is up, and countries that more successfully address the transition to more truthful external cost analysis, and policy outcomes that reflect that better understanding, will be ahead of the game economically, and socially, too, as their people will feel that things are more "fair". I love my country, but unfortunately, we are going to have a harder time of that, because the entity that can address those needs, government, is viewed with distrust by so many.
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #167  
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #168  
It was you that got me started here today, for some pleasant discusssions. Thanks.:thumbsup:

Glad you joined us and hope you participate when you can. Thanks.
Dave.
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #169  
I think your definition of "Fascism" I agree with. Which is why the current government, at least where it is opposing some, not all, corporate interests, isn't that.

Owning GM and Chrysler isn't Fascism?

I understand, I get it really, that "tax' thing, and state power to collect them or impose penalties of some sort, well if that is your primary issue, thats your battle. My taxes go to useful things I need and use, roads and schools and the Marines, and lots that I don't. "Having" to pay 'em can be upsetting, and is to lots. Don't pay 'em, trouble eventually shows up. The government power is certainly there in a special way. But, other really big trouble can show up, too. Maybe Wally World can't put you into the big house, but United Healthcare or Blue Cross or Assurant, can throw you and your kids into the street even if you always paid up faithfully, year after year, if they just say "denied" and wear you out. The credit card companies, banks, even the phone companies, etc., can ruin your credit if you say peep to their fees and rates raised at their whim, despite always being on time. Some companies can kill you knowingly, like big tobacco, or Toyota maybe, and lie about it 'till doomsday, or you can't afford the oxygen delivery service anymore, because your benefits "don't cover that in this instance". Government can get you with taxes, and it can let the companies that own it shred your life if anything's left. I want the government to lessen those things, AND tax reasonably, which means, to me, the poorer you are, the less you pay. Others see it differently. Gee, I'm getting depressed. Probably should stop now, and go get some Sausage!:licking: Those guys at Wally's entrance last I was there were giving me the evil eye.:laughing:

Before take off, please place your tray in the full upright position, fasten your seatbelt and ensure your tinfoil hat completely covers your head.:laughing:
 
   / Has the economy affected you and your tractors? #170  
But overall, in lots of cases, the jig is up, and countries that more successfully address the transition to more truthful external cost analysis, and policy outcomes that reflect that better understanding, will be ahead of the game economically, and socially, too, as their people will feel that things are more "fair". I love my country, but unfortunately, we are going to have a harder time of that, because the entity that can address those needs, government, is viewed with distrust by so many.

:thumbsup: .... But I'm not so sanguine hawkhart.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2022 John Deere RD35F Draper Head (A53342)
2022 John Deere...
New/Unused 10ft Workbench with 30 Drawers (A51573)
New/Unused 10ft...
2021 Caterpillar 299D3XE Track Loader (A53342)
2021 Caterpillar...
Quick Attach Skid Steer Plate (A51573)
Quick Attach Skid...
HARDEE RD60M LOT NUMBER 157 (A53084)
HARDEE RD60M LOT...
2013 Dodge Charger Sedan (A51694)
2013 Dodge Charger...
 
Top