Have you had warranty issues? Don't Buy John Deere

stvman · Aug 4, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

Rogue, The reason we will never Know is not Muhammed's fault. That is the point I wanted to stress. It is clearly obvious that incendiary posts are going to stir the pot . If I come on here and say Kubota is junk and 2000 people read it what percentage of the people will not buy Kubota based on what could be baseless information.

This is why we have the BBB and Attourney Generals office. If the Attourney General has a Judgement against Kubota then CW has every right to display the evidence he has and I will be the first in line to see it. As a prospective buyer of their product I want to see all evidence that is pro and con about them.

5030 · Aug 4, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

They are all JUNK if I can't afford them!!!

r0GuE · Aug 4, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

If you can't say that (in your opinion) that Kubota is junk, then what in the world is freedom of speech for? People say they are the greatest tractors in the world (I've said that a few times myself) and nobody seems to mind.. But if everyone, on every board, says every brand is the best in the world, someone is wrong. And that's ok.

As for sponsorship of the site, I'd have to say that this site has sold a LOT of tractors, and a manufacturer would have to be a darn fool to not advertise here. This is an excellent site, I am not saying it is not. I just get a little concerned at the rapid descent of the deletion hammer.

Perhaps I missed something that drove the moderators to pull the trigger.... but then, I would have thought just that post would get tagged.

Oh well.... I'm running out of interest in this debate. I've said my piece.

MikePA · Aug 4, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

 But if everyone, on every board, says every brand is the best in the world, someone is wrong. 
Why does someone have to be 'wrong'?

Saying something is 'the best' is an opinion and opinions are not right or wrong. Everyone places different values upon facts about a particular brand which cause them to arrive at different definitions of 'the best'. Facts are either right or wrong, not opinions. Calling opinions wrong is what can start flame wars.

_RaT_ · Aug 4, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

First of all Mike, did you know your on your way too 4000 posts?

"Why does someone have to be 'wrong'?

Saying something is 'the best' is an opinion and opinions are not right or wrong"

Thats pretty much what I was thinking Mike. Opinions are just that. Neither right or wrong with the possible exception of those individuals that have a opinion that differs. Had CW posted data to help support his complaint with the initial post and offered support for his bold comment, ("don't buy a new Kubota, buy used or any other brand") the thread may easily have survived being removed. I think his post was a great example of what not to do when you have a complaint or issue with a manufactuer. You will alienate a great deal of folks with an attitude like that, he did me. He certainly is free to repost and think out his issue. The comments here certainly would have given the ammo necessary to build a case. We may never know, Rat...

stvman · Aug 5, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

I think there is not much diffrence between a moderator and a news paper editor. When you have power it comes with responsibility if you let anything pass you loose your credibility.

r0GuE · Aug 5, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

I guess I would have to agree. If everyone said their brand was the best, that indeed is an opinion and they are not wrong. If someone says don't buy xyz brand because they don't honor warrantee issues, that is an opinion (with a little potential fact/evidence potential).

I definately agree that he could have done a better job presenting it in a more factual manner. Again, though, from my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) it was the dubious coments of the Kubota defenders that got the thread nixed, not the original subject line. (perhaps I am mistaken..?)

r0GuE · Aug 5, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

( I think there is not much diffrence between a moderator and a news paper editor. When you have power it comes with responsibility if you let anything pass you loose your credibility. )

This is not the Washington Post here, it is a "DISCUSSIONS" section of a tractor page.

rtimgray · Aug 5, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

I wasn't gonna say anything, but here goes anyway....
Did the thread the CW started really upset you guys so much that even after it has been deleted and CW has left the building/forum, you have to go start another thread under the guise of warranty claims just so you (as a collective) can run the guy down some more?

I agree, the subject line could have been seen as inflammatory, but the forum folk (again, as a collective and not all inclusive) were not very understanding. In less than 24 hours, before the man even got a chance to post a second message - he had already been labelled a troll and that his problem was obviously of his doing and he was just trying to stir the pot. He later posted a picture and fairly lengthy documentation and still didn't satisfy most folk - CW was still at fault and suspect no matter what he supplied as evidence. Maybe when he posted his original message, he had neither the photos nor the documentation at hand but still felt the need to post a message.

As a devil's advocate, since CW is not here to defend himself, and I personally don't blame him either, I'd like to propose the following scenario:

1. I've had a bad day with my tractor/hoe and dealer has just said "Nope, not a warranty fix - that's abuse." So I will calmly set down and compose a carefully worded diatribe so as to warn others of the consequences of having a thumb attached to an under warranty backhoe. Instead, I've got a real job and limited time at the PC, so I let the rage get the better of me and post a brief, harshly worded message for all to see.

2. I don't get a chance to get to a computer for a whole day (has that ever happened to any of you people) and when I get back, I'm already being burned in effigy for daring to sully the Kubota name. I read the posts, have some trouble with my PC, posts don't go through on the first time and folks talk more trash about me even after I get the photo posted.

3. I finally get another crack at the PC and get my documentation posted as an attempt to clarify/verify my situations, and doubts and accusations still fly. Finally, the whole post and any record of my existence on the forum is deleted by the forum master.

Wow, that was a real pleasurable experience. I'm gonna come right back to be part of this group... (that's sarcasm smeared on the screen, if you can't read between the lines).

And this sort of treatment from fellows that fancy themselves some of the nicest folk on the 'net....for shame.

And then I come back a few days later, just to poke around, and find that some of the folks I labelled "kubota biggots" have started another thread to talk about me behind my back....for shame (squared).

And maybe the reason that I couldn't reply to the messages earlier was that I had to go buy a new Woods backhoe because I have work to do that has to be done, and I can neither wait for the repair parts for the Kubota hoe nor do I want to invest money in a hoe that has already failed me during normal use. My plan is to sink a considerable amount of money into a new hoe that will hold up, and later (say this winter) at a more convenient time, I will purchase the components necessary to repair the Kubota hoe and sell it to recoup some of my investment.

...and I certainly won't tell the folks at that Tractorbynet.com board about it.

Disclaimer: I have no idea who CW is/was, don't know him from Adam. I do agree that he could have posted a more-carefully worded message, and I'm sure none of you folks have ever said something on the spur of the moment that didn't come out just right. I also think that the replies were far more inflammatory than the original post, almost as if the Kubota-folk took the matter personally.

And CW could have been a troll/huckster/pot-stirrer, but I think if he really had been, based on the response he got (which would have been what he was looking for as a troll, right?) Why wouldn't he post again to stoke the fire...but now we will probably never know.

I do feel, though, that you guys are being fairly hypocritical to talk about what a great bunch guys you are here and then get together just to bash the departed CW again...CW decided just to let it go, why can't you guys. A legitimate discussion about warranty issues is a valid topic, but I only saw a couple of posts answering that question and the rest seemed aimed at trampling the grave of CW.

MikePA · Aug 5, 2003

Re: Have you had warranty issues? Don\'t Buy John Deere

 If someone says don't buy xyz brand because they don't honor warrantee issues, that is an opinion (with a little potential fact/evidence potential).
I my experience, discussions, on the Internet or elsewhere, go astray when people jump to a general opinion ("Company XYZ does not honor their warranty.") from a specific fact ("Company XYZ did not replace my broken framis for free").

It's all too easy to get caught up in the emotion of a thread and fail to separate fact from opinion. What usually follows are messages where people begin accusing others of misquoting, taking things out of context, etc. The thread heads down hill fast from there.

With the rise of email for all types of communication, a rule of thumb is if an email conversation goes back and forth more than 2 times, then one of the people should pick up the phone and talk to the other person.

Person 1 asks a question.
Person 2 answers.

Person 1 doesn't understand the answer and asks more questions.
Person 2 answers again.

Person 1 still does not understand and either sends another email (bad) or calls (good).
Person 2, instead of answering again via email, should talk to Person 1

Unfortunately, this isn't possible on discussion forums like TBN, so threads can go on and on, usually dominated by two or three people conducting simultaneous monologues and not dialogs. While this doesn't happen often on TBN, because of the fine and civil citizens that live here, it has happened.

... that got the thread nixed 
I don't remember enough specifics about the messages to know why the thread got deleted. Suffice it to say that it's a judgment call as to when the value of a thread drops to zero or below. How can a thread's value drop below zero? When a flame war starts. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

It's a combustible mixture when a thread starts with (1) Opinion and (2) Emotion about any brand. It's human nature to jump to the defense of the brand a person purchased. After-all, a slam against Brand X is an indirect slam against anyone who bought Brand X because it implies they made a bad decision. So, up go the defenses. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif