Having A Hard Time Deciding Between LS Or Kioti

[GManBart]

Here's a little bit of an updat.
Yesterday I called another LS dealer about an hour and forty five minutes away. I asked them for a price on a LS XR3135. The man on the phone said he has never heard of that model before. I told him its on the LS website etc. He asked if he could could call me back after he looks into it a little more. I said sure no problem.
I then call LS to ask about the price on the identical backhoe to the Kioti KB2475. A lady answers the phone and said "LS". I'm a little confused....... I expected I guess a little more than "LS" lol but no big deal. I tell her Id like to talk to someone about the price of the backhoes...... I explained to her how Kioti has the same backhoe for $1,150 less and was wondering if we could get the prices to match up a little closer. She said "talk to your dealer. I said " I did but the dealer can't match an incentive from another company so I was wondering if the area rep could help out with it. Well her tone changed as to if I was up to doing something wrong. She took my name and number and said she will have someone call me. She wasn't rude...... But I think LS could fine someone with better customer service skills.
I got off the phone and called the Kioti dealer and told him I will not be going with the CK35 due to after seeing it (he had a few tractors come from another dealer in another state) we didn't like the fact that a lot of the plastic was faded out ( he tractor was wheathered ). My wife doesn't want to spend the money on a new tractor that doesn't look new. Anyways the dealer was fine with that and totally understood. We then started talking about the new CK3510 & CK4010. He explained the new models as to what they come with standard and what options they have etc. he priced all the options out for me and said you pick the ones you want. It turn out the new CK3510 will be a little cheaper than the CK35 and for $1,600 more you can bump up to the CK4010..... For me it's a no brainier to bump up. The only downfall with this new model is there's no factory cab (only dealer installed) available.
A little while after getting off the phone with the Kioti dealer I get a call back from the LS dealer.mthis time it's a different guy than the guy I talked to before. He says "we are trying to fined out some information on this new tractor model your teaching us about" I said "huh? Me teaching you about?" He says well this is a new model LS is coming out with. It won't be out until they sell out of all current inventory of the current model that it will replace" I said " no it all ready out." He said " no it only on there website at this time." I said " no it's already out. I have sat on one at Brian's (another dealer). He has the XR3135 sitting inside the building and the XR3037 parked outside" he says "you actually sat on this XR3135?. I said "yes" he then started talking about what the price of it. He gave me some prices. He asked my location and I told him. He then said " you have a good dealer in your area and that where you should be buying from" I said "the dealer in my area is a great guy but I'm calling around for prices". He was making it clear to buy from my local dealer. I then got into talking about the phone call I had with the lady from LS and told him I was a little upset with it. He said you shouldn't let the phone call from corporate office effect wheather to buy a LS tractor or not. I told him I would expect a dealer to make me upset over something..... Not the corporate office. We talked a little more and said if there was anything else he could do for me he would be happy to help me. I said thanks you and we hung up. He has no idea about the product he is selling.
About 5 minutes later I get a call from I'm believing is a LS rep in my area due to the are code from his phone number. I go thru and explain to him the whole thing about Kioti having the same backhoe for $1,150 cheaper. I asked him is there something he can do with the price. He said " I can just pull an incentive out of my hat" I said I understand it's just hard a a consumer to see two identical items but ones $1,150 more. He said " mabe Kioti has a bunch of them and is just trying to dump them" I said " no.....mother have incentives if you buy the tractor and backhoe as a package". He then skips what I'm trying to explain and says LS makes great machines etc etc etc. I said "I know they do. It this backhoe situation something you can help me with to make this sale happen?" He says "no". I said " ok thank you for your time".
I'm not mad that they won't match the price because all in all the overall price of the whole package I'm ok with. I just figured I'd ask about matching prices on the backhoe. If you don't ask then it won't happen. But I guess I'm not happy with the way the corporate office lady was, the dealer not knowing the products he sells and who I assume the area rep...... How he was on the phone. Again it's not because things didn't go my way...... It's just the tone etc. Although as a business owner I will try all I can to make a sale happen. I would have thought they would have worked with me a little bit to make a $32,000 sale happen.
As of right now I'm looking at it this way...... I haven't even spent my money with this company and I'm not happy with their customer service and their dealers lack of knowledge. The dealer I would buy the tractor from doesn't seem to know the LS tractors either. The closet dealer to me is great seems to know his product and wish I could buy from him but the numbers just aren't lining up.
This really makes my decision hard because I don't really like LS now (I really like the tractor) and I really like the sounds of the new Kioti CK4010 but Kioti doesn't offer the cab and I really want the cab.
All you guys here have some good advice so far and I could be right or wrong in this situation so please help set me straight either way.

So here's the reality check that might upset you (I hope not, but some folks take it the wrong way), but seems to be almost a universal truth here: You can ask for the advice of the forum all you want, but in the end, whatever you're thinking right now is 99% certain to stay the same regardless of what anybody posts here....it always seems to work out that way. The related reality (say that three times fast) is that it's your money, so whatever you think is always going to be the most important opinion...as it should be.

If I were making that decision, the one overriding thing I wouldn't be able to work around is that factory cabs are vastly superior to aftermarket cabs....no comparison. You can read horror story after horror story about problems with even expensive aftermarket cabs, and almost never hear anything similar about factory cabs. In short, if you want a cab (and there are a lot of reasons to want one) get a factory cab if you want to be happy with it in the long run.

All the other stuff about different dealers, factory phone receptionists and possible area managers, etc really doesn't mean much. I've learned that very rarely does a salesman at a dealer know as much about their own machines as I do. One time I told a salesman that I was hung up on the fact that X had 11" more FEL lift height than Y did, but he didn't believe me (he had both machines on the lot) until he went to the sales brochure rack and looked at the specs...."by golly, you're right." Yeah, I know that...I'm not an idiot, and looked it up before I came here...thanks. I've also learned that when you try to negotiate a price based upon what another dealer is quoting you'll often get astounded answers like "I don't know how they could sell at that price...it's almost our cost on that machine" and at that point I know they have no idea what they're talking about. Many dealers aren't used to educated customers who walk through their door with research and knowledge in their back pockets.

I'm not all that surprised the one dealer wasn't familiar with the new model...I saw that happen with a Kioti dealer late last year. I previously bought a tractor from them, and called to get a price on a new Kioti NX. I called three times, and they knew exactly who I was, so they knew they'd sold me a tractor 15mos prior. They never got back to me with a price....when I went past their on the way to another Kioti dealer, I saw they had a bunch of the prior model still on the lot, and none of the new NX models. I know they were familiar with the NX's existence, but hadn't even sorted out pricing yet, so I never heard back. The other dealer gave me a quote literally within seconds. That's not all that different from what you experienced, just with a different brand. I don't think it's all that unusual....unfortunately.

Two things about LS that I've noted that seem to apply. One, they seem to put some sort of mild pressure on their dealers to keep them from stealing sales from dealers in other areas. If they're careful about spacing out their dealers based upon some sort of objective criteria, that might make a lot of sense for the overall brand...keep sales local, and all the dealers get a proportional amount of the business without hurting other dealers. Second, they've been really good about communicating on their Facebook page, and responding to consumer queries, but that might be from the parent organization rather than the U.S. side of things...not sure.

 

[Hdoilcan]

Maybe you should expand your choices. Lots of good offerings out there. If you want a cab, I don't understand why you'd even bother looking at a CK35/3510. Why not check into (for comparison) a Kubota L3560, Massey 1736, etc. In fact, my friend is selling a great condition low hr L3540 (tier 3) HST cab that you could get for around $27k. Heck, you could even grab my Massey 1648 (tier 3) HST cab for around $28,500. Also good offerings from Deere, Mahindra, TYM, etc...

I had a Kubota L3540 cab that I just sold and was supposed to go with a little smaller tractor with a backhoe...... Figured trading the cab off for the backhoe. Mainly tho the L3540 was two big and heavy. The ck35 is a smaller tractor so that seemed like that would work. Thought I'd also check out the LS and after talking to the dealer he said a cab is only $4,000 more. After thing about it..... I thought aww why not have the cab and backhoe seeing the brand is cheaper and for what I got for the L3540. I was think the XR3037 was the same size as the L3540 but it's a little smaller and weights less (by not having the tires filled). It's not all that much smaller but I think just enuff.
I looked at other brands...... They have a Massey dealer 5 mins from here..... Not for me. I looked Mahindra..... Didn't really like them either. Not into the dears either. I like the Kubota's, Kioti, and LS.
I was going to use this new tractor for mowing also and that's why I wanted on that weighed less but we have decided to just get a zero turn and use the tractor for around the yard but still have to have it where is doesn't rip up the lawn. I definitely could use a smaller tractor but have to go as small as I can with the most loader capacity.

 

[TSO]

I had a Kubota L3540 cab that I just sold and was supposed to go with a little smaller tractor with a backhoe...... Figured trading the cab off for the backhoe. Mainly tho the L3540 was two big and heavy. The ck35 is a smaller tractor so that seemed like that would work. Thought I'd also check out the LS and after talking to the dealer he said a cab is only $4,000 more. After thing about it..... I thought aww why not have the cab and backhoe seeing the brand is cheaper and for what I got for the L3540. I was think the XR3037 was the same size as the L3540 but it's a little smaller and weights less (by not having the tires filled). It's not all that much smaller but I think just enuff.
I looked at other brands...... They have a Massey dealer 5 mins from here..... Not for me. I looked Mahindra..... Didn't really like them either. Not into the dears either. I like the Kubota's, Kioti, and LS.
I was going to use this new tractor for mowing also and that's why I wanted on that weighed less but we have decided to just get a zero turn and use the tractor for around the yard but still have to have it where is doesn't rip up the lawn. I definitely could use a smaller tractor but have to go as small as I can with the most loader capacity.

What about something like a B3030 ?

 

[Hdoilcan]

So here's the reality check that might upset you (I hope not, but some folks take it the wrong way), but seems to be almost a universal truth here: You can ask for the advice of the forum all you want, but in the end, whatever you're thinking right now is 99% certain to stay the same regardless of what anybody posts here....it always seems to work out that way. The related reality (say that three times fast) is that it's your money, so whatever you think is always going to be the most important opinion...as it should be.

If I were making that decision, the one overriding thing I wouldn't be able to work around is that factory cabs are vastly superior to aftermarket cabs....no comparison. You can read horror story after horror story about problems with even expensive aftermarket cabs, and almost never hear anything similar about factory cabs. In short, if you want a cab (and there are a lot of reasons to want one) get a factory cab if you want to be happy with it in the long run.

All the other stuff about different dealers, factory phone receptionists and possible area managers, etc really doesn't mean much. I've learned that very rarely does a salesman at a dealer know as much about their own machines as I do. One time I told a salesman that I was hung up on the fact that X had 11" more FEL lift height than Y did, but he didn't believe me (he had both machines on the lot) until he went to the sales brochure rack and looked at the specs...."by golly, you're right." Yeah, I know that...I'm not an idiot, and looked it up before I came here...thanks. I've also learned that when you try to negotiate a price based upon what another dealer is quoting you'll often get astounded answers like "I don't know how they could sell at that price...it's almost our cost on that machine" and at that point I know they have no idea what they're talking about. Many dealers aren't used to educated customers who walk through their door with research and knowledge in their back pockets.

I'm not all that surprised the one dealer wasn't familiar with the new model...I saw that happen with a Kioti dealer late last year. I previously bought a tractor from them, and called to get a price on a new Kioti NX. I called three times, and they knew exactly who I was, so they knew they'd sold me a tractor 15mos prior. They never got back to me with a price....when I went past their on the way to another Kioti dealer, I saw they had a bunch of the prior model still on the lot, and none of the new NX models. I know they were familiar with the NX's existence, but hadn't even sorted out pricing yet, so I never heard back. The other dealer gave me a quote literally within seconds. That's not all that different from what you experienced, just with a different brand. I don't think it's all that unusual....unfortunately.

Two things about LS that I've noted that seem to apply. One, they seem to put some sort of mild pressure on their dealers to keep them from stealing sales from dealers in other areas. If they're careful about spacing out their dealers based upon some sort of objective criteria, that might make a lot of sense for the overall brand...keep sales local, and all the dealers get a proportional amount of the business without hurting other dealers. Second, they've been really good about communicating on their Facebook page, and responding to consumer queries, but that might be from the parent organization rather than the U.S. side of things...not sure.

Not mad at all
What you say makes a lot of sence.

 

[Threepoint]

Hdoilcan, I've never kicked the tires of an LS tractor, in fact what I know about them comes from reports of owners and tractor enthusiasts on the Internet, and from the company's specs and marketing. That said, there is nothing at all in your descriptions of your telephone calls with dealers and LS corporate that would deter me from the two LS models you're interested in. If you're like me in shopping for equipment, especially big-ticket stuff, you pour over literature and specifications and try to get as smart as possible about what's on your short list. So in the case of a tractor, we narrow it to two or three brands and a few specific models and attachments within those brands. Pretty soon we can recite specifications on this or that particular tractor, loader, backhoe, etc. better than many salesmen or dealership owners themselves. But in my case, I have to remember that the salesmen and dealers need to know a lot about many different models and attachments within a specific brand. And when the dealership handles other brands of equipment, it's even more challenging. So when I was shopping for my mid-sized CUT early last year, the fact that I knew certain specifications and features about the models in the Kioti NX series compared, say, to some in the DK series that even the Kioti dealership owner didn't have in his memory bank didn't really surprise me. I'm sure he knows more about tractors and equipment than I'll ever hope to know. Same thing with the top salesman at a large Kubota dealership when I was simultaneously shopping the new Grand L60 series. He is encyclopedic, but I don't expect him to know everything I learned from studying intensively for several weeks.

Based on your own significant background with tractors, and your fairly specific needs in terms of weight and frame size, it sure sounds to me like the LS models you mention, with factory cabs, are your best bet. In my earlier post, I mentioned the $1,150 backhoe pricing disparity between LS and Kioti for essentially the same attachment only as a negotiating rationale, and it sounds like you'd already had the same thought. But dollars are fungible, and it's all part of a package. When it comes down to a deal, all that matters is the all-in package price, no matter how you get there. I'm guessing your Kioti dealer wouldn't sell you that backhoe for the same discounted price if you tried to buy it separately and put it on a new LS tractor. So a manufacturer throws in a free loader on some models of CUTs, or a deep price incentive on a backhoe attachment, or interest-free financing. But we all know that "free" stuff is really costing us something. If you want a factory cab in a tractor with that frame size, negotiate your best price and buy the LS. Can't imagine you'll be unhappy with it, judging from the high regard TBN owners have for them. Oh, and as for your experience calling LS corporate directly, I sure wouldn't delineate the quality of LS customer relations based on whether a particular coporate telephone operator happens to give good phone!

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

. . .

If I were making that decision, the one overriding thing I wouldn't be able to work around is that factory cabs are vastly superior to aftermarket cabs....no comparison. You can read horror story after horror story about problems with even expensive aftermarket cabs, and almost never hear anything similar about factory cabs. In short, if you want a cab (and there are a lot of reasons to want one) get a factory cab if you want to be happy with it in the long run.

. . . .

I absolutely 100% agree with this. If you want a cab, get a factory cab. Period. Doing otherwise will almost certainly result in frustration and disappointment.

The only exception I can see is those guys in cold weather areas who just want a removable soft sided cab to block the wind and spray while blowing snow.

 

[crashz]

Sounds like LS is the ticket, so what is the pricing difference among LS dealers (no need to tell us, just a point)? Could you justify a slightly higher price for your local guy considering service, parts and the occasional whoops? Keep in mind that the 50, 100 and 200 hr service comes up quick, and even if you do the work yourself, the parts, filters and oil will be in-stock ready for you. I believe this adds some $$ value in time and hassle avoidance.

Not having new machines, I can't really comment on the dealers aptitude. But I visit them strictly as a retail outlet for the stuff I need.

 

[schaapk]

My 2 cents. Check out ground clearance on LS XR3037HC loader frame and lifting height. These 2 areas were effected with trying to gain lift capacity. And maybe this isn't a show stopper. Good luck.