Heart Healthy Eating

   / Heart Healthy Eating #221  
Hi Pacerron and others,

I haven't seen the TV clip you're referring to, but this sounds suspiciously like a case where the media is spreading some disinformation. This is not a case of Europe doing something that hasn't caught on in the US yet. In almost every person in the general population, you don't need to take BP in both arms because small variations are completely normal. In a patient with severe atherosclerosis it is prudent to check BP's in each arm for reasons I'll explain below.

Some background that everyone should understand. This thread title refers to heart disease, but atherosclerosis affects all the blood vessels. In the heart, the most severe ultimate consequence is a heart attack (MI or myocardial infarction), in the brain -- stroke, in the kidneys -- hypertension and chronic renal failure, etc. No, I'm not going to talk about calcified plaques vs ulcerated plaques. I'm just going to tell you some basic "plumbing" and how it relates to pathophysiology.

The large artery coming out of your heart is called the aorta. It curves around and makes a U turn, called the aortic arch. Lower down, the aorta gives off branches to major organs in the abdomen. At the top of the aortic arch, there are 3 major branches that go to your neck/brain and arms: the brachiocephalic artery (aka innominate art.), left common carotid artery, and left subclavian artery. See attached pic.

250px-Gray506.svg.png


Atherosclerotic plaque formation has a preference for the artery origins (branch points). The left subclavian artery artery for some reason gets more plaque than the other 2 in the arch. If there is enough plaque buildup, or narrowing, the blood pressure beyond that point will be lower. This is the main reason why there is sometimes a significant difference between the BP's in each arm. Very, very *basic* pathophysiology, which every primary care doc also understands. If the narrowing is severe enough, you don't just have a blood pressure differential: when you exercise your left arm, blood can be stolen from the other side via vertebral arteries which supply your brain, causing dizziness, fainting, or even strokes. One of 4 of the main arteries starts flowing backward (AKA subclavian steal syndrome) all because of narrowing of the artery supplying your L arm!

These are disease processes I work with every day. Today, I interpreted many chest CT scans and carotid ultrasounds, both of which we can use to diagnose subclavian stenosis. I can also "alleviate" these diseases, for instance, by opening a clogged up renal (kidney) artery with a stent to relieve life threatening severe HTN (only IF that is the cause of the high BP).

What I am trying to emphasize from a medical perspective, is that just looking at heart disease or micromanaging your cholesterol levels is not looking at the whole picture. Having heart disease just shows you have whole body atherosclerosis. Again, diet, exercise, stopping smoking, reduced stress (via faith, meditation, whatever works for you) are key. Much better than taking drugs. So, so many diseases that affect Western society, especially the USA could be markedly reduced.

Marcus Bryner, M.D.
Interventional & general radiologist

Thanks Doc for your illustration and informative comments. I think my arms have had some difference for many of my 70 years. I always assumed it was because the piping to my right arm was probably a little longer and the fact that I'm left handed making my BP a little less in my right arm. How's that for "AMAtuer reasoning":laughing: I took my BP using an electronic Lumiscope cuff last night that we have had for years. I always did the left before, but to illustrate the Mayo clinic article I did both arms.
There was some spread. Left arm 124/76 and right arm 120/62 I never rely on one set of numbers for most things so I will repeat this both arm test about once a month until my next doctor appt and may discuss it with him.

You are probably fortunate not to have much direct patient contact. I can just imagine how a lot of patients drive doctors nuts with all the questions
they dream up about their own case from exposure to all this internet, TV, and book information about health. Digging a ditch would probably be much healthier.
Ron
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #222  
There are so many twists and turns to this one can't really be sure what is causing this disease so prevalent amongst us. They have ideas what might but I cannot be sure these ideas relate to everyone. In one instance, its fats causing blood delivery problems. Eskimos never had heart disease eating seal meat which is basically almost all fat. Plenty of omega 3's not so many omega 6. They then switch to our western diet and boom- heart disease. Why is it almost no one had heart disease in this country 150 years ago? We ate meat and cheese and eggs and butter and its not because people didn't live as long as there were plenty of people living into their 80's. Why did they find arteriosclerosis in the mummified remains of the 5100 year old frozen guy they found in Europe recently? This guy was a forager. What and how large are the effects of stress? The mummy was murdered. Was he being chased for a couple of years causing stress? If you have no stress in your life is one safe eating fats? If you have no or little sugars, can one eat like they did 150 years ago and not get coronary disease? The drug industry wants everyone on statins. Is it necessary to reduce cholesterol to this extent or is it more important for the drug industry? Instead of getting numbers of cholesterol, why aren't we being told of "pattern" of cholesterol and being tested for this? Then there is inflammation as the culprit which is now said to cause everything. I switched to a plant based diet not so much for my heart although it is benefitting from this diet. The main reason I switched is I do not trust the food industry. A chicken takes 6 months to mature. The industry chickens take 28 days because they are fed hormones. So we have hormones, anti biotics, beef supplementation, nitrites and nitrates, sugars and all kinds of other chemicals in our animate and inanimate food supply and fake food supply such as Twinkies and colas yet we are still wondering what is causing our diseases. Talk about the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Is it as simple as "if man makes it, don't eat it and don't eat so much of that even"?
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #223  
Hi Pacerron and others,








These are disease processes I work with every day. Today, I interpreted many chest CT scans and carotid ultrasounds, both of which we can use to diagnose subclavian stenosis. I can also "alleviate" these diseases, for instance, by opening a clogged up renal (kidney) artery with a stent to relieve life threatening severe HTN (only IF that is the cause of the high BP).

. Much better than taking drugs. So, so many diseases that affect Western society, especially the USA could be markedly reduced.

Marcus Bryner, M.D.
Interventional & general radiologist

Thanks for the info doc
Is CT scanning the only available marker for the main artery branching stenosis you refer to. Can even these be found with ultrasound or nuclear stress test?
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #224  
I always assumed it was because the piping to my right arm was probably a little longer and the fact that I'm left handed making my BP a little less in my right arm. How's that for "AMAtuer reasoning"

You are actually probably correct. :) For small variations in BP, length of the pipes, number of twists and turns, level of use (which causes vessel hypertrophy/enlargement) will all contribute to these small differences in pressure. Just like a long pipe in a plumbing system will have lower end pressure (while flowing, not static) than a short pipe. When you get differences of 15-20 mmHG across arms then maybe you need to have a test done.

There are so many twists and turns to this one can't really be sure what is causing this disease so prevalent amongst us.

Good points and you raise valid concerns. I just know that studies of very large cohorts of people on plant based diets w/ high fiber, low fat, low processed foods, low eggs, etc., w/ high levels of exercise have a significantly longer life expectancy. Not nursing-home life, but healthy happy longer life. You've mentioned many anecdotes. i.e. The eskimo on the high fat diet had a low life expectancy to begin with, maybe from exposure or trauma or low medical care, and they get more exercise. Maybe the chronic diseases of modern society don't get to see the light of day because they don't live long enough. (Just guessing here.) Same with the African bushmen we were discussing earlier. I also don't trust the food industry. We buy a lot of organic stuff (but not exclusively) and we grind grains and bake our own bread, etc.

Is CT scanning the only available marker for the main artery branching stenosis you refer to. Can even these be found with ultrasound or nuclear stress test?

A CT angiogram (CT while injecting IV iodine-based contrast) is a great way to evaluate vessels in the chest. MRI of the chest has artifacts because it is not as good at stopping the motion from the heart. MRI works better for vessels in the brain, because the CT has some artifacts from bone around the base of the brain. OTOH, non-contrast CT of the brain is great for evaluating the brain in acute settings like intracranial hemorrhage or trauma. I've had patients yell at me and storm off to the hospital administration because their "Dr" (nurse practicioner) ordered the head CT *with* contrast and they (pt and NP) thought that must be better and who am I to change the study. Trying to tell these kind of people you are doing the correct study for them is like talking to a brick wall. Yes, U/S is also used. It may not provide as high of detail, but is often cheaper and that is one reason why it gets ordered 1st to look at carotid (neck) arteries and vessels in the abdomen. For instance, if I see reversed flow in the left vertebral artery (in the neck) on U/S, it can be inferred that there is L subclavian artery origin stenosis due to plaque. You also have to remember that the calcium scoring CT you mentioned earlier is using an algorithm to *infer* the amount of atherosclerosis (including non-calcified plaques) based on the amount of calcified plaques. The cardiac nuclear medicine scan is also *inferring* the degree of stenosis (narrowing) or occlusion, based on the heart wall motion changes between rest and activity after injecting a weakly radioactive material that can be measured w/ a gamma camera. The nuclear medicine stress test works for coronary arteries to the heart because the test is based on measuring the blood perfusion to the heart muscle. It wouldn't work for branch vessels from the aorta because of the speed at which the blood is flowing though them.

I can just imagine how a lot of patients drive doctors nuts with all the questions they dream up about their own case
Sometimes we have to roll our eyes! :) But, having people come in w/ questions they find on the internet or pop magazines is usually no big deal for me. Usually, I'm well versed on whatever they come up with, and if not I just have to say "I don't know but I'll try to find out."

I never want to come off as sounding arrogant on this forum -- just a fellow tractor owner that found this thread "up my alley" -- and it's hard to convey emotion or sarcasm w/ typed words. I've never been politically correct either. :)
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #225  
Just as an aside Dr. Marcus. At my last hospital foray, it was a gentleman who has the same vocation as you to think to take pressure from both arms. He was the only one. He was extremely diligent at his job and when I commented about it, he stated he was from Russia. He felt American medicine was "just too much business" I thought it interesting to have the cultural aspect intermingling with his profession. At any rate, he did a superb job with me. I'll take and prefer a doc such as yourself who is right at the roots of medicine modalities all day long over the guys who simply read your results. This gentleman seemed to be the only one who was actually thinking after reading my file.
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #226  
I never want to come off as sounding arrogant on this forum -- just a fellow tractor owner that found this thread "up my alley" -- and it's hard to convey emotion or sarcasm w/ typed words. I've never been politically correct either. :)

Thanks again for your info. Your presentation and family life style shows no signs of arrogance on this forum. We are glad to have your more professional explanations to help us weed out our foggy conclusions. One of the anxieties of life is not being able to pursue a variety of interesting paths of employment during
our relatively short working years. " Variety is the spice of life, but monotony brings home the bacon"
Woops better change bacon to beans :laughing:
One more about piping.. My wife says that back in the early 60's when she was studying for her microbiology degree, they used pig hearts in the classes.
She notes that a small percent 5-10% of the pig hearts had different piping or branching. Have you found this to be true in humans and does it have any
significant correlation to any heart diseases?
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #227  
Variety is the spice of life, but monotony brings home the bacon
Couldn't agree more.

I'll take and prefer a doc such as yourself who is right at the roots of medicine modalities all day long over the guys who simply read your results.
Thank you. Appreciate the compliment. Unfortunately, there are radiologists who have terrible patient care skills, which is good if you're in a field where you have less direct patient time. Some guys like me would do great with more patient care, but don't like being in clinic all day dealing w/ people who are whining about things that could be fixed w/ diet and exercise or lower stress, for example. (Trying not to diverge this thread *too* much. :) ) Much of what a doc does is counseling, which I'm not very good at. :laughing: And I like what I do. If it weren't for interventional radiology, I'd probably be a surgeon. I did a surgery intern year after medical school, and the university wanted me to stay in surgery residency, but I was excited to continue on into radiology. Here's another analogy: An MD has to be at the top of their class in college to get into med school, correct? Well, a radiologist has to be in the top of their class in med school to get into radiology residency. And, by definition, we have to have very broad knowledge of multiple specialties, lots of pathophysiology, and very good anatomy knowledge. Sort of a doctor's doctor. OTOH, just don't ask me a lot about skin diseases or psychiatry, etc. -- a lot is forgotten!

a small percent 5-10% of the pig hearts had different piping or branching. Have you found this to be true in humans and does it have any
significant correlation to any heart diseases?

Yes. The "normal" configuration occurs in only about 70% of individuals. Variations happen in 30%! Surprised me when I did a quick fact check -- didn't realize it was that high. I was trying to keep it (relatively) simple! :) We see variations commonly because of the way things form embryologically. The most common in this area is a "bovine arch", meaning the the L common carotid artery branches from the brachiocephalic artery (see pics below) instead of the aortic arch. You can guess why it's called that (actually a misnomer).

"Normal":
F1.medium.gif


Most common form of bovine arch (common):
F2.medium.gif


True bovine arch (very rare):
F4.medium.gif


Other common variants are vertebral arteries branching directly from the aortic arch, R sided aortic arch, etc. There are many configurations of the vessels around the heart, some of which can cause symptoms or be life threatening. Most of the variants that are common would not significantly affect the "heart disease" we have been talking about. But, maybe you can see how if you had significant plaque in the L subclavian artery (supplying arm) but your L vertebral artery (supplying part of brainstem and back of brain) came directly off the aortic arch (relatively common), you wouldn't have the subclavian steal syndrome and reasons for stroke that I mentioned above. The L arm would have lower BP, but that's all. The coronary arteries of the heart also have several variants, but you guys were talking about differential BP's in the arm so I stayed with that example.

Marcus
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #228  
There may be some advocates of taking blood pressure on the legs.:)

Not sure but a pig's anatomy may be similar to that of humans???:confused:
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #229  
There may be some advocates of taking blood pressure on the legs.:)

Not sure but a pig's anatomy may be similar to that of humans???:confused:

Our population is certainly starting to be shaped more like pigs:)

Before we get off the different methods and purposes of monitoring blood pressure, and back to food, I found some logical tips for monitoring your own at home that should give more realistic results on the second page of this article. Get the most out of home blood pressure monitoring - MayoClinic.com

"Arrow" where did you determine that commercial chickens and pigs are given growth hormones in this country?

TxDon hasn't contributed for a couple days. Hope the going back to running outside hasn't created problems?
Ron
 
   / Heart Healthy Eating #230  
taking blood pressure on the legs.

Totally different topic now, but yes, routinely done in workup of atherosclerosis. Peripheral pulses of arms & legs are routinely checked, as well as color, swelling, skin appearance, etc. Do a quick search of ankle-brachial index, also.

a pig's anatomy may be similar to that of humans???

Closer than many other animals.
 

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