Heat pumps

/ Heat pumps #1  

joemd11

Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
991
Location
Western Pa
Tractor
LS R3039, Power King 1614, Simplicity Soveriegn 75th Aniv model.
Question for you guys versed in the HVAC realm. First, my system is totally electric forced air with heat pump and air handler. Is it normal for my 16 seer(sp?) heat pump to run when the outside temp is below zero? I thought that these things were only good down to about 32˚ or so and then the heating coils in the air handler would take over. It has been bitterly cold here for several days and I see the heat pump operating all the time. My thermostat has different modes - Heat, Aux heat, and Emerg heat. Even when it is this cold the system is usually running in the heat mode and only occasionally goes into the aux heat mode. I've programmed the thermostat to 68˚ during the day and 70˚ at night and the system does a nice job of holding these temps. Basically, I thought that the heat pump would only operate down to some outside temp and then be shut off while the heating coils in the air handler take over to provide the heat. Thoughts?
 
/ Heat pumps #2  
It does seem silly the heat pump runs when it cannot provide any measurable additional heat. Just costing money.
I replaced my heat pump/gas system with ground loop geothermal. Well worth it. Cut my cost over $100US per month.

I would suspect the unit could be adjusted to shut off when the temp gets to a certain low temp.
 
/ Heat pumps #3  
Well my first two questions would be

1. With the heatpump running at 0 outside, is it keeping the house warm?
2. If it does keep the house warm, are the heat strips ALSO coming on to assist?

IF you dont know the answer to 2, you need to find out. IF the air coming out of the vents is really warm, like 95-100 I would assume they are. But you can either put an amp clamp on the leads to the strips, or just shut that breaker off for a bit and see if the temp in the house starts dropping (heat pump alone cant keep up).

There is a science to heating and heatpumps and when to switch them on/off and from my research and experience, isnt agreed upon through out the trade.

A 16 seer unit should have no trouble getting to a 3 COP on a 30-40 degree day. That is Cost Of Performance. Electricity creates 3414 BTU for every Kw of power. A COP of 3 means that for every 1Kw your heat pump uses, you should get ~10,000Btu out. But since a heatpump's performance is based on outside temp, the colder it gets, the lower the COP. Until a point at which the COP would be 1, it is more efficient (cheaper per BTU) to run the heatpump as much as you can. Even if it cannot keep up.

Example. Lets say your heating requirement at 20 degrees is 30,000BTU. Adn the COP of the heatpump at that temp is 2.0, and the HP can only make 20,000BTU. Well, thats not enough, and the AUX heat will come on from time to time. But it will still be more efficient than running on ALL AUX heat, cause your first 20,000Btu only requires 1/2 the kw to make than if you were running on 100% AUX heat.

The trouble is, no HVACcompany that I am aware of actually takes the time to set the unit up so it operates at its most efficient. Cause this takes time. You have to monitor the performance of the HP, at various outside temps, know how often it has to defrost (wasted kwh), you have to know your blower CFM, and temp changes from return to supply, and you have to know the kw used by the heatpump. All of that plugged into a formula (or spreadsheet) to see how many BTU the heatpump is capable of producing at varoius outdoor temps.

No 2 systems are the same. It is unique to each setup, and the goal is to find the point at which you are putting more kwh into the HP than the heat you are getting out. And that is the point at which the outdoor unit needs to shut off and run on nothing but AUX heat.

To give you an idea, my 15 year old 10seer HP, that point was 17 degrees vs propane AUX. Since propane is cheaper than electric per BTU, that number would have been lower if I had strips. While 0 degrees sounds low, it may be quite possible that it is still producing heat cheaper than 100% AUX. But when you get that cold, you are also wasting alot going into defrost mode which all has to be accounted for.

The other issue is comfort. Alot of people just dont like 78 or 80 degree air coming out of the vents. Their perception is that it is cold air, even though it isnt. So alot of heat pumps are set to shut off at a higher temp just to prevent return trips because customers thing it isnt working.

If you dont like the HP running at 0, most have a way to adjust. Either a thermostat on the unit outdoors, or on the thermostat inside. You can dial it in to your liking. But if it were mine, I'd be figuring out the BTU output vs KwH input at the various temps and adjust accordingly.
 
/ Heat pumps #4  
My heat pump runs all the time even if the auxiliary coils are on. So far this year the coils have only came on a couple of times when it was 17F and 19F outside. We have had a pretty mild winter with only 2 artic blasts making it this far south (not counting the one predicted to hit today. We got some freezing rain last night but temps are still barely below freezing (29F) and the heat pump is running now as I type this.

I had to go outside this morning and beat the ice build up off the fan screen as it was almost completely blocked by the freezing rain from last night. It is right outside my master bathroom window and I noticed it sounding a bit off (loud) when running as it is normally quiet running.
 
/ Heat pumps
  • Thread Starter
#5  
I started this thread partly due to the fact that my power company routinely sends letters saying that I am using a gazillion% more electricity than other houses in my area. My house is roughly 1600 sq ft and last month I used 3900kwh. I don't know if that is excessive for an all electric house??? The house ,built in 1953, could probably use some additional insulation and we have landscape/security lighting that is on a lot.
 
/ Heat pumps #6  
3900 does sound a bit steep but I dont have any all-electric examples to compare to.

My last house built in 1996 had 6" walls and 1300 sq ft. And my backup was propane as mentioned, so not a good comparison.

Given 1953, it is likely 3" walls, and possibly blown in that has settled. Probably not much in the attic unless you have added.

Just to give you an idea of what your heatpump "may" be saving you.....

My current house before wood burner install. It is 1250sq ft built in 1987. R13 walls and R38 ceiling. Electric baseboard heat only and in upstairs only. Back in november when the average temps were warmer, I was 150kwh per day. Thats a 4500kwh per month.

Given your house is bigger, and likely less insulation, if you did not have the heat pump, I would expect yours to be over 5000/month.

After the woodburner install, my usage dropped to 30-40/day. So the heat alone was 110-120 (~3500/month)

Let me ask this. IS it a new-to-you house? ordid you just have the system installed? Do you have any history of this system? What was last winters usage?
 
/ Heat pumps
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Well my first two questions would be

1. With the heatpump running at 0 outside, is it keeping the house warm?
2. If it does keep the house warm, are the heat strips ALSO coming on to assist?

IF you dont know the answer to 2, you need to find out. IF the air coming out of the vents is really warm, like 95-100 I would assume they are. But you can either put an amp clamp on the leads to the strips, or just shut that breaker off for a bit and see if the temp in the house starts dropping (heat pump alone cant keep up).

There is a science to heating and heatpumps and when to switch them on/off and from my research and experience, isnt agreed upon through out the trade.

A 16 seer unit should have no trouble getting to a 3 COP on a 30-40 degree day. That is Cost Of Performance. Electricity creates 3414 BTU for every Kw of power. A COP of 3 means that for every 1Kw your heat pump uses, you should get ~10,000Btu out. But since a heatpump's performance is based on outside temp, the colder it gets, the lower the COP. Until a point at which the COP would be 1, it is more efficient (cheaper per BTU) to run the heatpump as much as you can. Even if it cannot keep up.

Example. Lets say your heating requirement at 20 degrees is 30,000BTU. Adn the COP of the heatpump at that temp is 2.0, and the HP can only make 20,000BTU. Well, thats not enough, and the AUX heat will come on from time to time. But it will still be more efficient than running on ALL AUX heat, cause your first 20,000Btu only requires 1/2 the kw to make than if you were running on 100% AUX heat.

The trouble is, no HVACcompany that I am aware of actually takes the time to set the unit up so it operates at its most efficient. Cause this takes time. You have to monitor the performance of the HP, at various outside temps, know how often it has to defrost (wasted kwh), you have to know your blower CFM, and temp changes from return to supply, and you have to know the kw used by the heatpump. All of that plugged into a formula (or spreadsheet) to see how many BTU the heatpump is capable of producing at varoius outdoor temps.

No 2 systems are the same. It is unique to each setup, and the goal is to find the point at which you are putting more kwh into the HP than the heat you are getting out. And that is the point at which the outdoor unit needs to shut off and run on nothing but AUX heat.

To give you an idea, my 15 year old 10seer HP, that point was 17 degrees vs propane AUX. Since propane is cheaper than electric per BTU, that number would have been lower if I had strips. While 0 degrees sounds low, it may be quite possible that it is still producing heat cheaper than 100% AUX. But when you get that cold, you are also wasting alot going into defrost mode which all has to be accounted for.

The other issue is comfort. Alot of people just dont like 78 or 80 degree air coming out of the vents. Their perception is that it is cold air, even though it isnt. So alot of heat pumps are set to shut off at a higher temp just to prevent return trips because customers thing it isnt working.

If you dont like the HP running at 0, most have a way to adjust. Either a thermostat on the unit outdoors, or on the thermostat inside. You can dial it in to your liking. But if it were mine, I'd be figuring out the BTU output vs KwH input at the various temps and adjust accordingly.

LD,
Yes, the system is keeping the temp we have set in the thermostat and the house is comfortable (at least to me, the wife may differ). The coils(aux heat) only cycle on occasionally because it is indicated on the thermostat and I can tell that the air from the vents is noticeably warmer. Thanks for your explanation on this topic and it jives with what my HVAC guy has been telling me.
 
/ Heat pumps
  • Thread Starter
#8  
LD,
The house is brick Cape Cod style. Wall insulation probably consists of a sheet of celotex or whatever they used back then. The attic is 6" batting that I installed when we had a new roof installed 10yrs ago. I had the roofers remove some boards so I could install the new insulation in area that had no access from the attic(i.e. dormers).
We have had the current HVAC system for about 7yrs now. Prior system was oil. My electric usage seems to be consistent year over year. Average electric bill is around $200/mo.
 
/ Heat pumps #9  
LD,
Yes, the system is keeping the temp we have set in the thermostat and the house is comfortable (at least to me, the wife may differ). The coils(aux heat) only cycle on occasionally because it is indicated on the thermostat and I can tell that the air from the vents is noticeably warmer. Thanks for your explanation on this topic and it jives with what my HVAC guy has been telling me.

I would still do some checks on the system just to see if it is operating at its most efficient. All you need is an accurate thermometer, and a meter with an amp clamp.

(if you do not have a meter with an amp clamp, you can always read the nameplate RLA (compresser running amps) + the outdoor fan amps and get close. Nevermind the usage of the indoor fan, cause it has to run with either system.

The formula is BTU=CFM x 1.08 x temp change.

IE: you have 1000CFM blower, and your cold air return is 70 and warm air out is 80

1000 x 1.08 x 10=10,800 BTU

If your unit is pulling 8 amps total @ 240v, thats 1920w.

10,800/1920 means you are getting 5.62 BTU for every watt into the system. With electric being 3.41BTU per watt.

5.62/3.41=1.65. That would be the COP. You are 1.65 times more efficient than electric strips.

The most challenging part is finding the true CFM. It isnt simply what the blower is rated for. Its what the duct work can handle. To get a true number, reverse the formula and turn on AUX heat only. Let it run for 5 minutes or so to equalize the duct work temp and let things warm up. Measure the temperature difference.

In this case, CFM = BTU / (1.08 x temp change)

So if you get 30 degree change and have a single 10000w strip.....that 10,000w strip is 34,100BTU.

34100/(1.08 x 30) = 1052CFM So whatever number you get here, use it when doing the calcs on the heatpump. If you are good with excel, its easy to plug a formula in for all of this once you find your amperage and CFM. Then all you have to do at varoius outdoor temps is plug in the cold air and output temps and it will spit out numbers for you. Without doing all of this, you really have no way of knowing.

The heatpump will always produce heat. With the way you describe of the aux coming on every once in awhile is normal. But what you dont know is if the heat the pump is making, is it cheaper heat than the strips? It is possible that the heatpump is making 2000BTU for every Kwh used. Still making heat, just not as cheaply as the strips can.
 
/ Heat pumps #10  
LD,
The house is brick Cape Cod style. Wall insulation probably consists of a sheet of celotex or whatever they used back then. The attic is 6" batting that I installed when we had a new roof installed 10yrs ago. I had the roofers remove some boards so I could install the new insulation in area that had no access from the attic(i.e. dormers).
We have had the current HVAC system for about 7yrs now. Prior system was oil. My electric usage seems to be consistent year over year. Average electric bill is around $200/mo.

For PA, thats not enough in the attic IMO. Consistency is good. Has it always ran when outdoor temps get this cold? I would have assumed since you posted that either something has changed, or that it was a new system and you were concerned.

Do you have the ability/tools to do some of the figures I mentioned? I think it would be worth while and you will get a good understanding of everything. And how outdoor temps relate to the performance of he unit.
 
/ Heat pumps #11  
LD lots of good information there.

I started this thread partly due to the fact that my power company routinely sends letters saying that I am using a gazillion% more electricity than other houses in my area. My house is roughly 1600 sq ft and last month I used 3900kwh. I don't know if that is excessive for an all electric house??? The house ,built in 1953, could probably use some additional insulation and we have landscape/security lighting that is on a lot.

One of the best things you could do is work on air sealing and insulation. Maybe someone else can chime in but I would think blown in would be better than bats for the attic. A blower door test will help you find the leaks and will be especially easy to find when its cold out. Given the size of your house I would think that you could get your usage down significantly with some work on the building envelope. If the landscape and security lighting is LED then the amount of usage that contributes is minimal. You could easily figure your KWH usage if you know the wattage and run time of the lights. My guess regardless of type is that its probably not a significant factor.

Our house is total electric however its new construction probably on the opposite end of efficiency from an older home, closed cell spray foam, geothermal, and fireplace for supplement heat. House is 3500 square feet, two water heaters, 2 adults and 3 kids so lots of showers, laundry, etc. Our latest bill showed 2640 KWH for the billing cycle, or about 88 KWH per day.
 
/ Heat pumps #12  
Our house is total electric however its new construction probably on the opposite end of efficiency from an older home, closed cell spray foam, geothermal, and fireplace for supplement heat. House is 3500 square feet, two water heaters, 2 adults and 3 kids so lots of showers, laundry, etc. Our latest bill showed 2640 KWH for the billing cycle, or about 88 KWH per day.

Thats about what my usage was at my previous 1300sq ft house. Only used propane when it was colder than 17. The rest was all HP. 2 adults and 2 youngins (baths everynight). I was also out in my shop tinkering alot on my days off. (3-4 days a week). That was running ~700watts of lights for 10hrs a day, plus equipment. Air compressor, welder, etc. Also had a 200w aerator, 200w pond pump and a 80w pond pump that all ran 24/7. And a 200w birdbath type heater that ran in the small pond when below freezing.

I think my highest ever was 3000kwh. Needless to say, when I moved to a similar sized house with baseboard heat only and no ponds or shop, and was pushing 150kwh a day before it even got real cold, something had to change. Basement was unlivable due to no heat at all, and was really expensive to heat upstairs. I am burning wood to get through this winter. But planning on a DIY geothermal this summer, once I get the bulk of the work done on building my shop.
 
/ Heat pumps #13  
Be aware that the issue with heat pumps is NOT efficiency, it is capacity. A modern heat pump will still output more energy in heat than it consumes in electricity even in the single digits. As it gets colder out, the energy draw for the heat pump drops as well. The problem is that the amount of heat that it is generating also drops with temperature. This is due to the fact that the colder the air, the less heat that can be drawn from it. So in very cold temps, the electric heat is added as a SUPPLEMENT to the heat pump. So if you require 30,000 BTUs and the heat pump is only generating 15,000 at the given outdoor temp, the electric heat makes up the difference. So when the backup is on, the heat pump will still run and is still generating its portion of the heat at efficiency greater that straight electric heat. A a low temperature the heat pump will reach a point where is will generate less heat energy than it consumes. This point is generally zero or below for a modern heat pump. So it is normal for it to run, and usually run 100% of the time at cold temps. It is still giving you more than the electricity it is using.

paul
 
/ Heat pumps #14  
My all electric 2010 built home or 2380 sq foot averages about $160 per month winter and summer. We put extra insulation in all the walls and really overdid the ceiling for Arkansas when we put in R 52 rating insulation. We have a 19 SEER rated HVAC system which is far superior to the 13 SEER that the OP has. It would pay for itself in 2-3 year to upgrade that system to at least a 19SEER.

I agree 6" bat insulation is what is required in the southern states and is no where near enough for way up North. Check the requirements for your area, but I would guess that it requires at least 12" of bat insulation.

Some saving can be had by monitoring lights, TV's, etc to make sure they are turned off when not in use. My next door neighbor (3500 sq foot 2010 build house) complains about his electric bill being over $400 per month, but whenever I go over, there will be at least 2 and sometime 3 TV's on (just the 2 off them) plus lights on in every room, doors left open when they go outside for 5 minutes or more. His man cave (really nice about 2000 sq feet) usually has a TV on in it even if no one is around. Refrigerator doors stay open for 5 minutes or more when they are preparing food and a ship load of outside security lights that burn way into daylight hours. Lots of wasted energy there for sure even though it is well insulated, it doesn't help when doors are open for several minutes at a time.
 
/ Heat pumps
  • Thread Starter
#15  
First, I have to say that you guys are the best. It never ceases to amaze me the depth of knowledge and expertise found on this forum. Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

LD1,
I'll have to enlist the help of my brother, an electrician, to run the tests you suggest (wow, thats a lot of math). He is retired now and usually looking for something to do. The question I posed in this thread was just one that I always pondered when I was outside on really cold days and would see the HP running. Thanks to you I now have a better understanding of whats going on.

Gary,
I agree that I need more insulation in the attic. We moved into this place in 95 and it only had 3" of rock wool insulation in it at that time. I thought I was really improving the situation when I tore that out and replaced it with the 6" fiberglass bats. One more thing on my "to do" list will be to add more insulation to areas that I can access. The house is cape cod style so some areas (i.e. dormer ceilings or behind knee walls) are not accessible from inside.
Insulating the walls would be a bit of a problem as the exterior is brick. I know insulation could be pumped into the walls, but I'm leery of going that route. I wouldn't want to create a moisture problem. Also, my HP is a 16 seer as opposed to 13 and about 7 years old. Don't know what seer they are up to now but it will probably be several years before we upgrade our system. Really wish I could get a natural gas furnace/HP combo but we have no gas lines nearby. I guess geothermal would be another option to investigate.

techman,
Thanks for your informative post on HP operations. I feel better now knowing my system isn't grossly out of whack.
 
/ Heat pumps #16  
The only thing an electrician is really needed for (and not even then if you have an amp clamp) is figuring out what amps your HP is using.

Everything else is just measuring temps and putting the numbers in. You cannot get all of your answers in a single day. It takes weeks of checking at different outdoor temps. But the HP amps only need checked once, thats a constant. Same with blower CFM. Once that is figured out you are good. All you have to do is check inlet and outlet temps of the vents, figure the BTU and COP, and make of note of the outdoor temp. You will find a time at which it makes sense to have the HP shut off. But without this, there is no way of knowing if that number is 25 degrees, or -5 degrees
 
/ Heat pumps #17  
To give you an idea, my 15 year old 10seer HP, that point was 17 degrees vs propane AUX. Since propane is cheaper than electric per BTU,

Don't assume that's the case for everyone. You need to plug your local rates and efficiency ratings into here to find out: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls

I found that in my area, propane is more expensive than electric when it's more than $2.20 a gallon. Which it has been for quite a while. Might be cheaper know, but I blissfully don't know... put in a geothermal heat pump system this past fall and haven't bought propane since then.
 
/ Heat pumps #18  
Don't assume that's the case for everyone. You need to plug your local rates and efficiency ratings into here to find out: http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls

I found that in my area, propane is more expensive than electric when it's more than $2.20 a gallon. Which it has been for quite a while. Might be cheaper know, but I blissfully don't know... put in a geothermal heat pump system this past fall and haven't bought propane since then.

I wasnt assuming anything. Just citing my experience. In the OP's case it doesnt matter and the numbers are easier, since both the HP and the strips are powered by electric that cost the same per Kwh
 
/ Heat pumps #19  
Check to see how many times the unit is going into defrost..At 0 temps.. the unit is probably going into defrost more often.. When the unit goes into defrost you get no heat ,but the unit still uses energy.. your aux heat (heat strips) come on during the defrost cycle.. note.. when your HP goes into defrost mode..You are in A/C mode..the heat strips come on to off set the A/C mode so, you don't get cold....You are using energy that you can't use (for heat) every time it is in defrost mode.. Depending on your elect. rates.. you may be better off with HP vs propane.. Glad we don't get 0 deg temps here
 
Last edited:
/ Heat pumps #20  
i got suckered into the installation of a heat pump about 8 years ago. luckily i insisted on the 95% efficient gas propane backup emergency heat option. That system never worked well when temps fell below 35F outdoors. the system was always cycling and going into defrost. i could see ice build up on it. Had it looked at by 3 different warranty HVAC guys. wasnt worth the dynamite to blow the thing up with. House was never warm in the deep winter unless i manually placed it in emergency heat mode.

when the A/C started giving us problems on the hottest days..i ripped out the heat pump compressor and my HVAC guy installed a regular air conditioner. he reprogrammed the tstat as a standard gas furnace and elect a/c compressor. Now i love the system. My fuel bills are actually less this last winter and the house is warm. was nice and cool last summer also.

heat pumps might be nice in temperate climates....but no one will ever convince me there right for cold northern climates. no one. Im out about $6,000 on this failed test.
 

Marketplace Items

2000 KENWORTH T800 TANDEM AXLE MID ROOF SLEEPER (A59905)
2000 KENWORTH T800...
2016 Chevrolet Tahoe SUV (A59231)
2016 Chevrolet...
2021 Takeuchi TL10V2-2 Track Loader with 76in Tooth Bucket (A61306)
2021 Takeuchi...
30KW GENERATOR (A58214)
30KW GENERATOR...
2008 CAT D4K XL (A58214)
2008 CAT D4K XL...
SKIDDED FRAC TANK (A58214)
SKIDDED FRAC TANK...
 
Top