Heating the garage

[Ozarker]

I was aware of the flicker problem with lighting and fans. My vision was, and I have never done it, that the lights would be hanging from the rafters at what would be ceiling height (no ceiling) and the fans would be above them attached to the ridge beam.

I have seen the tubes you describe. Use to have them in an old helicopter hangar that I worked in at Ft Stewart Ga. No, I never worked on helicopters. The Engineers took it over when the 24th Division was activated there.

When I said solar, I was thinking simpler and cheaper. I saw a design for a simple heat box to move air on the internet a couple of years ago and now I can't find it. It was nothing more than a plywood box with a glass face and it was painted black on the inside. It was attached to the south outside wall with vents to the inside. It drew air in, the sun heated it and the heated air went back into the room all by natural convection. It was a very slick design. I'm still looking for it.

 

[Chillimau]

Hey PatrickG,

Did you soils engineer recommend anything special structrually or just typical basement construction? PM me your soils fellow please. I am a ways off from this, but am starting to build a notebook of contacts, thoughts and such.

 

[Marko]

Alan ,

Do not know if you would be interested.

We just put on an addition to our old house (actual it is a new house that we attached to the old one ) and we converted over from forced hot air to forced hot water. The forced hot air furnace we only used for heat in the winter as we had an electric hot water heater. Glad that is over with. Anyhow , the furnace I bought new in the fall of 1997. It is a horizontail unit made by Hallmark with a Beckett Oil burner. It is in excellent shape. It was used to heat a small 6 room single floor ranch totaling 768 Sq ft. Since we converted to forced hot water when we buildt the new house we do not need this anymore. It will work great for heating a garage etc. Let me know if you are interested and we can talk off line about it.

Mark

 

[patrickg]

ChrisNJ, Sounds like a terrific deal! Uhh, by the way, you either have terrific insulation (about R value a jillion) or the furnace makes more than 100 Btu of heat. More likely, 100,000 Btu. (at least 10,000)

My shop is too big, too drafty, and marginally insulated to heat economically with other than radiant heat. Since I hope to build another smaller shop closer to the new house site I get the chance to insulate it and seal it better so that I might be able to heat it easier/cheaper. If I go with a water to water ground source heat pump I'll have heat, AC, and dehumidification in the shop by plumbing in insulated water lines to a fancoil unit. Variable or multi-speed master compressor will allow good long run times with a varying load such as when turning on the shop as a load and turning it off later with only the one compressor for the three stories of house and the shop. If I go this route I will have at least minimal snow melting capability for the steps if not some sidewalks and of course the part of the aprons for the 3 car garage nearest the rollup doors. I hate removing ice from steps and sidewalks. Snow is not so bad but ice is a pain. Also don't like chemical ice removal.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Ozarker, Du-uh, of course, why didn't I think to think of the fans being above the lights? Oh, well. You like passive solar pumper warm air?

A book I read by a civil engineer who built houses, instrumented them, and sold them tells of a neat design:

Floor has regular cinder blocks laying on their sides with holes lined up horizontally as a substrate to the poured slab. Plenums (manifolds?) collect the north extremes together and likewise the south side. Registers in the floor and or wall at floor level allow air to circulate under the floor. House is typical passive solar with long dimension running E-W and lots of fenestration on south. Sun heats slab and likewise the air in the floor on the south side. It rises drawing in floor level cool air on the north side. As long as the slab is warmer than the cold air at floor level on the north side (sun is shining or has shined recently) the air is heated and circulated. Delta T from north to south side of the slab is only a few tenths of a degree. Thermosyphon continues several hours into the evening after there is no sun on the slab. Very even heat. Whole slab is warmed so get benefits of radiant floor heat plus gently circulating warm air. No electricity, no noise, no moving parts but air. He said some folks liked to have a small quiet fan to give stronger circulation, especially if the house is larger and flow paths are convoluted.

Pretty darned slick. Same guy did an analysis on building costs vs energy efficiency and found that 2x4 studs were often a "loss leader" item at builder supply stores but over all your total purchases came out about the same store to store. SOOOOOO he designed a double stud wall using the cheap 2x4 studs in two staggered layers, simulalting the 2x6, 2x8, or 2x whatever stud wall but WITHOUT thermal bridging. His walls were as cheap as a 2x6 but had no thermal bridging and could take an unbroken insulation layer essentially equivalent to more that a 2x6, plus the extra thickness of the actual studs. Very high R value walls!

You won't find these inovative but most practical ideas in any tract and few custom homes built by "god ole boys" who do the same thing over and over and call it experience.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Gary (AKA chilimau), The PE soils and foundation consultant brought a sub contractor (2 guys and a drilling rig) out and incrementally drilled a hole and took samples. The engineer gave me his "instant anlaysis" then sent an emailed prelim rept and then a letter with the official report after lab work was finished.

His off the cuff comments included such things as "you could meet code for a 5-6 story commercial bld with no special design for foundation. Very good supportive soils, high psi capability. and such). There was about 5' 2"-7" of high sand content soil with good compaction and load bearing capability then a couple feet of course highly compacted sand of a different color, then rock strata. He said his experience was that this shale (if I recall correctly) was usually 200-400 feet thick. So we stopped driling when we got into solid rock a bit as nothing of interest woild be found and I don't own the mineral rights so hitting oil would not be a good thing.

Formal writen report gave details on actual sample analysis. Anyway he recommended min of 18" width in the footers and this with knowing I was intending to go with steel reinforced concrete two story home over similar walkout basement. He noted a "trace" of expansive soil but not enough to alter a standard design for foundation or bassement. No problems with expansive soil, WHOOPEE! A relief.

The two feet of course sand on top of the rock was full of water and you could see yourself in the reflection on the top of the water in the bore hole. Later it went away but came back after a rain. We got 1 1/4 inches in two days, yesterday and day before. Rain percolates through the surface layer to the course sand and can't penetrate the rock so pools there and slowly flows down the gentle slope toward a couple of my ponds and the south Canadian river. A few weeks ago I had a track hoe digging to get some dirt for berming the house when finished. The dirt was taken from a "almost pond " that was dry at the time but has frogs and cat tails much of the year. 30 hours after digging it out more we got 4 1/8 inches and it filled to eithin about 18 inches of overflow. That plus the water and fish from the one permanent hole farther "up stream" and voila instant stocked pond. When that "pond" was being dug out we went through a layer that started seeping water out of the side of the cut (I suspect this is the same layer over 1000 ft to the house site). Finding this layer helps explain why even during the record drought a few years ago, my ponds didn't go down very much and no fish were lost.

From memory, Arvel (for sure) Williams (I think) company is GW**2 (GW squared in reverse Polish notation) Up around Edmond I think, not 405 area code. The firm of civil engineers I hired for perk tests for my mom's house and mine did the foundation design for my mom's house (pier and beam) but turned me on to the guy they use as a consultant to them when they get into a must get it right/difficult situation. This was Arvel Williams. They told me that he was a real practical hands-on guy who showed up on site when big pours of his design were happening and indeed he often is there for 3-7 AM large concrete pours. He tailgated a visit to me on one of those in Ada.

The whole evolution with him was about $1000. Now that I have the answer I know I didn't need the subterranean analysis but had to have the analysis to know that. No complaints here, I was thrilled to find out the good news.

He recommended foundation drain designs, sub slab drain designs, intercepting ditch designs to remove water coming down slope toward the site, and lots of other construction details to eliminate water problems as well as comments regarding floor coverings that pass vapor and do not trap it so are suitable for a slab floor in a basement. I think the info he supplied and the peace of mind from the analysis made his fee a bargain. I do not hesitate to recommend him.

Got prelim cost estimate from a prospective buillder today, and as you might expect, right at the limit of budget. Of note to folks who followed the porch thread... This builder figures covered porches at about $15/sqft (finished with rails but fairly plain) so I think the wrap around back and side porches will be 12 ft wide and the not-to-be-used-much front porch will be 6 ft wide (an ornament to look at mostly, not to look from).


Ahh, slow search finished...

GW2 Engineering, Inc.
Arvel L. Williams, P.E.
President
221 W. Wilshire - Suite A
Oklahoma City, OK 73116
Phone: 405-842-7007
Fax: 405-842-7269
Cell: 405-409-6224
Nextel Direct Connect: 124*30*12567

Patrick

 

[Ozarker]

I've see that design, cinder blocks on the side, someshere before. I would probably work for a house but I would be afraid of it for a garage where I was parking heavy equipment on top of cinder blocks paying on their side.

I also saw a design often used by people in poorer countries who live in small huts. Essentially, they build a fireplace/firepit on one side of the dwelling and the chimney on the other side of the building. Under the floor is a baffel system that forces the heated air from the fire pit to snake it's way through the baffels under the floor to get to the chimney on the other side. The original thermal heated floor design.

But think even cheaper than that for a minute. The heat exchanger I saw a couple of years ago and can't find now was designed to give supplemental heat in a room without making any changes to the house. It put heated air in through the window. Think window air conditioner but a window solar heat exchanger.

 

[ChrisNJ]

sorry, patrickg, for the lack of patience while typing. yes it is 100,000. it heats the barn from 30 degrees to 70 in minutes, and i didn't duct it either, just used the old distribution box with two existing outlets pointed in different directions. The exhaust went out a sleeved window opening. I filled the 275 gallon tank and have only used half in 3 years! although my new JD4310 looks like it will deplete the oil faster since it's got 30 hours on it already. After having kero heaters, salamanders, etc... for years, I wish I would have done this a lot sooner.