Help - 2610 won't start, suspect Voltage Regulator

[mtimber]

Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

Had the tractor out last Saturday and mowed for about an hour, shut down and when in to eat lunch and there was a brief rain but when I went back to the tractor a couple hours later it would not turn over. Tried to jump the battery but no luck. Got the voltmeter out and the battery showed about 12.8 V DC. Checked all connections at battery, starter, alt and everything looked tight. Started playing with things and noted that sometimes the charge light on the dash would come on when I turned the key to on and sometimes it would not. Left the tractor alone until the next day (last Sunday) and checked it out again. Turned the key to on and the charge light illuminated, turned to start and I just got a click or clunk from the starter. Turned the key back to on and no charge light. Repeated a few times with the same results. Let the tractor rest for awhile, turned the key to on and got the charge light, tried the turn signals and they would flash but the draw eventually killed voltage and the dash charge light went out and turn signals stopped. Let tractor rest and signals would do same again, let rest tried headlights and immediately killed voltage. Tested throughout the week and found the tractor would maintain the signals and eventually the headlights but would not turn the starter. Tested the VR (that is the small cylindrical unit attached to the top of the starting motor, where the positive lead of the battery attaches, right?) with a voltmeter. With voltage at battery at 12.8V, voltage across VR was 12.7V with key off, dropped to 11.4V with key on, and voltage across VR would slowly drop when turn signals where turned on, more quickly when headlights were turned, and immediately drop to zero when tried to start. Let tractor rest for 10-15 minutes and voltage across VR would go back to 12.7V but would drop again as previously described.

Does this sound like a bad VR? If so where is a good place to get a replacement? Do I need to get a factory part from one of the tbn dealers or are there crossover parts that will match from say NAPA or JD?

Thanks /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[gbirky]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

The 12.8 or 12.7 volts you have measured is plenty to turn the engine over. The cylinder on top of the starter isn't the VR, it is the bendix which acts as a solenoid to put power to the starter, and throws the starter gear to engage the flywheel. The drop to 0 volts measured across the bendix when you turn the key to start is normal.

I don't understand why the voltage should drop over time when you turn on the lights, and then recover when you let the tractor sit. This could indicate a bad ignition switch.

Here is what I would try. The bendix should have two large posts and a single smaller one. One of the large posts will have a cable running to the positive terminal on the battery. If there is a cover on that post, pull it back to expose the post and nut that holds the cable onto the bendix. Pull the small wire off of the small post on the bendix. Make sure the tractor is in neutral, with the brakes locked. If you have a remote starter switch, connect one lead to the large post, and one to the small post. Now close the switch to see if the engine cranks. If you don't have a remote starter switch, take a screwdriver and CAREFULLY short across the large (bat+) post, and the small post on the bendix. This will put power to the bendix to engage and power the starter. If this doesn't turn the tractor over, then you have bad connections, a bad bendix or a bad starter.

Get back to us with the results.

 

[DetroitMike]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

If the signals kill battery voltage in a short amount of time and the headlites kill it right now, It sounds like the battery has an internal short and its draining itself.

And sometimes when this happens a jump start will not work. You need to get that battery out of there and replace with a known good one. Be sure to check the charging system if you get it started.

 

[pruntyc]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

You could also have a bad connection at the battery like the cables or clamps. They will sometimes act that way. I would check them first, before anything else. And be sure and clean the battery post, as a dirty post can also make a bad connection and do the same thing. Been there and done that, myself.

 

[wellcraftxls]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

Be sure to check and clean where the ground wire connects to the frame. Mine started fine in the morning and after lunch it wouldn't do a thing. Battery had a full charge. Removed and cleaned the ground wire and all was right with the world.

Mark

 

[floridaboy]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

As Wellcraft says, I had the same type of problems and it turned out to be the negative cable connection to the frame. I removed the connection, cleaned the cable end and the frame where it was connected with a wire wheel on a drill and reconnected. No problem since.

 

[mtimber]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect bendix

Thanks for all the help so far - as you can tell I don't know a whole about engines but I can usually figure things out with a little help, and a tractor is a good place to start learning.

Well, this is where I am at. I went ahead and checked the neg batt terminal and it had a clean connection to the frame, probably replaced when I purchased the tractor ~ 1yr ago. I didn't suspect there was a problem here anyway since I was getting power to all lights. Also, I put a new batt in the tractor in January so it should be strong.

I bridged the wires across the bendix (assume this was to rule out the ignition switch) and got the same results as before, just a click in the starter but not enough juice to turn it over. It sounds like we've narrowed things down to the bendix and/or starter? All other connections seem clean and tight. Is the function of the bendix to store extra current to help turn over the starter? Could the response from turning on signals and lights point to the bendix as the culprit? I don't have a wiring diagram so I'm not sure how the lights are wired/connected with relation to the bendix or what relationship there is between the bendix and power that goes to the lights. I have also tried tapping the starter since I know they sometimes get 'stuck'.

Thanks for all the advice - let me know where to go from here. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Inspector507]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect bendix

mtimber,
The bendix does not store energy for the starter. It's mainly a solenoid/switch for the starter. What is the battery voltage when you short across those 2 posts?
By the way........I just live a few miles North of you and we share the same employer.........different departments, but the same guy signs our paychecks /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jerry

 

[Emmett]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect bendix

Did you check both battery connections? I have saw this problem many times and it is almost always a poor connection. The small lights dont need much metal to metal to work but head lights take more and the starter takes a bunch. I would try to start it a time or two the feel for a warm connection at the battery and ends of the big cables from the battery. You said it rained just before the problem, and a little mousture and a corroded terminal could make a poor working connection stop working.

 

[mtimber]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, still baffled

Done messing with the tractor for tonight - too dark now. Used fine grit sand paper to clean both battery terms and neg connection at frame. No change. When I turn key to on, turn signals will usually light, headlights will sometimes light, and starter will give me no more than a click/clunk. Once I try the starter things seem to short out and the dash charge light will not even illuminate until I let the tractor rest. Tonight battery was showing about 12.6V DC with no load, dropped to about 12.5V with either the turn signals and/or the headlights illuminated but suprisingly showed no change when I turned over the starter and things shorted out. This makes me think that the problem is with the starter or the bendix. But could a problem in the starter or bendix cause the irregularities in the lights? I also noticed that the turn signal would sometimes blink at different rates, sometimes at the normal speed and sometimes much slower, but always at full brightness. Any suggestions? The bendix/starter or just an electrical short somewhere? Thanks for the continued help everyone.

PS. Hi Inspector507, or should I say neighbor. It's funny, we sit down in front of our screen, log on to the internet and end up getting advice from a co-worker who lives just down the road. Thanks for the advice.

Mark

 

[Jackbax]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, still baffled

Mark,
Try running a voltage drop test on both battery cables. You just put one lead of the meter on the positive battery post and the other lead to the large stud on the solenoid and have someone try and crank the tractor, if the meter reads over 1 volt, replace the cable. This works the same on the ground side, just read from the negative post to the bolt where the cable is tied to the frame. This checks the resistance of the cable under the full load of the starter and is the quickest way of checking for corosion where the cable ends crimp to the cable.

Jack

 

[Soundguy]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect bendix

So when you hit the starter switch, the voltage doesn't appreciably drop? And the same when you jump across the solenoid terminals...odd

Just For kicks.. try disconnecting the power to the starter, and try jumping it just from another battery directly to the starter to see if it turns over.

Also, to check the solenoid, disconnect both the incoming and outgoing power cables.. all that should be left is a small wire for activating the solenoid. Have someone help you on this on. Ok, hit the starter switch, and have you meter set to measure volts.. check from that little wire to ground.. when the starter switch is hit.. you should read voltage, to energize the solenoid. If you don't.. then you need to check that wire, etc.
If you do, then that is good. Next, set you meter to measure ohms, or continuity. put the leads on the big studs.. one on each side of the solenoid. Just sitting there you should read infinit ohms.. that is, no connection. When the starter key is hit, you should immediatly drop down very close to 0, if not 0 ohms. If you do, then the solenois good..

Sounds like you may have a few different problems going on at once.

Soundguy

 

[Tractor_Tim]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, still baffled

All of the above are good ideas. With my experience with larger diesel engines I am thinking that the starter has a dead spot or has shorted out. You can remove the starter and take two battery cables the each post of the starter to see if it turns on its own. (Remeber ++ --) (you can do this from a different battery to ensure that it is not your battery causing the problems) If the starter turns over then it is wiring on your tractor or the battery. If it does not then turn the starter over by hand or with a screw driver to move the internal workings to a different spot. Then try with your battery again. If this does not work then take it to your local electrical automotive rebuilder and have your starter checked out or rebuilt as that I am sure it would be more economical than a new one. Also note that taking a reading on your battery may not always indicate that it is weak, it may carry no load (amps) but it may recover quickly to show you voltage. I hope this helps.

 

[DavidJ]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, still baffled

You've gotten lots of good advice here, so I'll just add one thing. I had a car once that developed an intermittent short in the positive battery cable where it passed the frame and would short out at the oddest times. It was pain to find but would act like you're describing.

 

[mtimber]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, ruled out battery

Need to take a break from the tractor. Ruled out the battery and connections at battery terminals (I disconnected the tractor battery and connected tractor directly to my truck battery with truck running, but still had exactly same symptoms, except I had higher voltages since the truck alternator was adding voltage.) Tried directly connecting battery to the starter and the starter did spin unlike the usual click/clunk I had been getting. Should this be the case that the starter would just spin or should this have actually turned over the tractor? Another odd thing was that while I had the lead from the pos batt term and the lead to the ignition switch disconnected from the bendix post I checked voltages. It showed approx 2V between the pos battery lead and the wire that leads to the starter. It would actually show about 2.2V and slowly drop back to 2V with the ignition switch turned off. When I turned ignition switch to on, the voltage between these wires went to 12.7V, the same as the voltage between batt terms. This didn't seem right to me, as if I have a grounding prob somewhere (or a short in the ignition switch itself). Any more suggestions?

Thanks

 

[YanmarFever]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, ruled out battery

Mark
If it helps, I have a 2610-D here for a while if you need me to compare wiring ,numbers,or what ever ?
We are changing the rear axle seal on it (2610-D)
What a nightmare getting the rear axle back on track inside the outer tube, lining up the splines was a job for a man with a mustache!
maybe thats why it took 2 of us? (no mustaches) /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Ernie <><

 

[Soundguy]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, ruled out battery

Well, if you actually got the starter to spin by hooking it up directly via jumper cables to another battery, then you might be able to rule out the starter.. however the next thing you need to check is the bendix/solenoid.. that sounds like it may be toast.

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start, suspect Voltage Regulator

Oh yeah. to check the solenoid/bendix, disconnect the wire fromt he ignition switch that runs it, and try the jumper cable test again, only this time hook up the jumper cableas with the negative one to the starter for ground, and the positive one to the place the battery cable would be attatched. Then take a short jumper wire and wire over from the positive jumper cable to the solenoid activation post.. that will test the solenoid and then let you see if the starter spins up..

If this si still installed on the tractor, and not on a bench,.... then make sure you are in neutral.. so you don't run yourself over..

Soundguy

 

[mtimber]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start

Thanks for all the help fellas. I was able to get the tractor started yesterday by connecting the two battery terminals to the starter. Took a couple of trys but it turned over. I have ruled out the battery and the starter. I'll have to do some more testing to pinpoint the problem. Could be a combination of the bendix, ignition switch or a short/grounding problem somewhere. The charge light on the dash stayed lit after the tractor was running yesterday - I can't remember if this is the way it is supposed to function or not - I thought I recalled it going off after the tractor started. Also, the turn signals were working last night but the headlights would not come on while the tractor was running. Some of the symptoms are leading me to believe it is a short in the ignition switch. The tractor spends a lot of time outside and I leave a key in the ignition (other than theft, is this a bad idea for switch life?)

Another thing that leads me to think there is a short in the ignition is something I wrote in a post yesterday:

"Another odd thing was that while I had the lead from the pos batt term and the lead to the ignition switch disconnected from the bendix post I checked voltages. It showed approx 2V between the pos battery lead and the wire that leads to the starter. It would actually show about 2.2V and slowly drop back to 2V with the ignition switch turned off. When I turned ignition switch to on, the voltage between these wires went to 12.7V, the same as the voltage between batt terms. This didn't seem right to me, as if I have a grounding prob somewhere (or a short in the ignition switch itself)."

Shouldn't the voltage across these wires be zero when the ignition is off? Pos batt term connected to an open circuit? Again, I'm thinking a short in the ignition switch. This would explain the way this first started - tractor was fine, went in the house for lunch and there was a short rain, tractor wouldn't start.

Again, thanks everyone for all the help and thanks for any additional comments.

Mark

 

[Inspector507]

Re: Help - 2610 won\'t start

Mark,
Sounds like it COULD be the switch, but I'm wondering about the "clunk/click" when trying to start it before....??