Help adding 230v outlet at subpanel in the garage

[Furu]

Agree with the others.
While yes you could get 230 volts from what you have it is a kludge. What you did before is not even close to code what you are proposing will be even further from code and if something happened (fire) your home owners insurance would most likely void your policy if they could find anyway to blame an electrical issue or if it could be blamed in any way.

Put in a proper subpanel. Even though it is your garage it effects the house wiring load center as well.

Not talking permits (money grabbers) but the code is there for a real good reason.

 

[SSdoxie]

Ideally you should put a 100amp panel in there based on breakers you have plus the 30amp you want to add to it. Can't do this to "Code" without replacing the #10 feed wire you have. Wires to a sub-panel must be capable of carrying the max amp load of the panel.

 

[Sodo]

Ideally you should put a 100amp panel in there based on breakers you have plus the 30amp you want to add to it. Can't do this to "Code" without replacing the #10 feed wire you have. Wires to a sub-panel must be capable of carrying the max amp load of the panel.

Good info. I know I'm not changing the #10 feed. I can combine a couple circuits into one, but for convenience wanted outlets and lights on 2 separate circuits so if I blow an outlet the lights don't go out.

Anyway, So you're saying I can never get this to code? I still want to take is as far as I reasonably can, so it mostly looks right. My house has a 200A panel and I'm certainly not increasing that.

Agreed. It looks almost like there is a ground buss in the top left of the panel? If not, there is a place to put one there. I would add one then you should be up to code inside the box.

Aaron Z

If this panel can be made "to code" (after the feeder ! ) that would be great. Thx Aaron& Dan!

 

[bucktaker]

what is the total amp load you expect this panel to support? 15x2 20x1 30x1.... looks like 80 amps to me
Number 10 wire will not carry 80 amps, you may never pull this but your panel is set to pull 80 amps.

Like mentioned replaced the panel with a 100 amp panel re feed this new panel with correct input wire. That the only way to be Close to Code

 

[Sodo]

what is the total amp load you expect this panel to support?

Thanks for the help.

Realistically, the subpanel will be limited to 30A (by the 30A breaker that feeds it on the main house panel). I'm not going to feed it 100A, because I'd have to increase my house panel from 200A to 300A. That sounds like a permit from the city and $2500 - that ain't happening. I'd buy an 8000W generator for $1000 instead - pretty sure I have to do that anyway.

Also I have no ground rod (in the ground) from this panel, do I need that?

I understand that if any part is not to code then it's not to code. At this point I'm only entertaining the possibility of being "to code" within the panel. If that's not possible then it's back to "my own code" which is just make it safe & keep movin'. This is all pretty easy, very much appreciate the tips & background knowledge.

 

[brokenknee]

You didn't mention if the garage was attached or detached from your house. If it is detached you will need to drive a ground rod.

Disclaimer, I am not an electrician but my brother in law is. I am pretty sure this is what he told me when I was thinking about adding a sub panel to a shed.

 

[Rock knocker]

1) Buy and install a 2-pole 30A breaker.
2) Abandon the supply lugs and side feed into item (1). They will be your disconnect on site
3) Buy a floating neutral kit at McLendons and move all your whites there
4) Add a ground rod
5) Add breakers as needed, and as room allows
6) Your sum of your breakers can exceed the feed with no violation

Easy peasy

 

[k0ua]

1) Buy and install a 2-pole 30A breaker.
2) Abandon the supply lugs and side feed into item (1). They will be your disconnect on site
3) Buy a floating neutral kit at McLendons and move all your whites there
4) Add a ground rod
5) Add breakers as needed, and as room allows
6) Your sum of your breakers can exceed the feed with no violation

Easy peasy

OK, more questions.. do all the ground wires including the ground wire from the main panel and the ground wire from the local ground rod go to the ground buss?

You addressed adding the floating (not attached to the box or the ground buss.) neutral buss, and I assume the neutral from the main panel feed goes there as well as all the white/neutral wires in this building and DOES NOT connect or bond with the ground wires.

You just failed to address what exactly happens to the ground wires on the circuits and the ground wire from the main panel and the ground wire from the new locally driven ground rod.

And from what I could see of his box, he does not have enough space to have a 30 amp disconnect to accept the feed from the main panel AND also have room for another 30 amp breaker for the welder.

 

[s219]

As others have noted, you should not be bonding ground and neutral at this sub-panel. They should be kept separate. Bonding is only done at the main panel.

Rule for ground rod in a detached structure is that it's not needed if it's a strict branch circuit off the main. If it's a feeder, you do need a ground rod. If you just had one circuit fed by the sub-panel, it's a branch, but if you have more than one it's a feeder (which is what you have). My pier has multiple circuits, so it has ground rods. When I run power to my barn, I will initially have just one circuit for lights, so no rod will be needed. If I expand that to multiple circuits, a rod (actually two rods, 7 feet apart) will be required.

I couldn't tell from the picture what brand panel that is, but surely they make a dual-pole breaker that will let you connect a 240V circuit. Panels alternate legs as you go down the bus, so every other breaker is on the same leg. A dual-pole breaker will span two connectors and pulls from each leg.

Sum of breakers can exceed the feed. No single breaker can exceed the feed however (for obvious reasons).

Good luck!

 

[cycle_gator]

1) Buy and install a 2-pole 30A breaker.
2) Abandon the supply lugs and side feed into item (1). They will be your disconnect on site
3) Buy a floating neutral kit at McLendons and move all your whites there
4) Add a ground rod
5) Add breakers as needed, and as room allows
6) Your sum of your breakers can exceed the feed with no violation

Easy peasy

Need to check your local codes on the additional ground rod. NEC says no new ground rod to a sub-panel. But this could be different locally as it is still a hotly debated issue. Depends a great deal on the grounding capability of your local soils. #3 is exactly correct and should be done regardless. The NEC requires the neutral and ground to be isolated except at the first point past the service entrance. NEC also says that your sub-panel does not need a local shut off, but power needs to be suspended on site with no more than six switches, so you are still good for code there. The largest issue you have is the wire size, potential voltage drop (you did not say how far it is from panel to panel) and max load on the sub-panel circuit. But if you are not exceeding the 30 amp load based on the variable connections for lights, the outlets and the actual amperage requirement of your welder, you may be just fine, as is.

My advice, pay $100 to $200 to get a local electrician to come look at it and tell you what you need to do to install it to code. If you go ahead and install it without the advice and find yourself continuously running to the house to reset the 30 amp breaker, is it really all that convenient? Based on the sum of all your household loads, even if you bump that sub-panel to a 50 am breaker in your main panel, I doubt you will need to worry about your 200 amp service. you would need every electrical appliance in the house on, or motor starting, and using your welder at max amps to create that situation. It just never happens. But you would need to up the size of the #10 wire. That appears to be UF (direct burial) wire? Which mean either opening that ditch or digging a new one. The #10 can just be disconnected, removed from the main and sub panels and abandoned.

I hope this helps.