Help me choose a new welder!

   / Help me choose a new welder!
  • Thread Starter
#41  
Getting back to that extension cord idea, have you all found that buying a premade Nema 6-50 cord to match the miller MVP plug is ridiculously expensive?

10/3 RV cord would be overkill in current capability, but you can buy it for a buck a foot and just cut off the plug/receptacle and replace. What are you guys doing?

I'll be putting in a receptacle here at the garage and down at the shop, right next to the panel to avoid fishing wire, so I'm going to need 2-50ft cords. I'm reading that 12GA is plenty for the Miller 211 at 220 but it seems an odder size and more expensive.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #42  
Before committing to the gauge of the wire for the extension cord, check the current draw of the machine.
Then determine the size you need.
The Miller 210 required a 30 amp setup, I went 50A on the circuit breaker and 6 ga for the wiring in the shop and the extension cord.
Overkill... Maybe but if the welder doesn't get the full current it needs then you will have two things happening, you will over heat the extension cord because the welder wants more than it can supply and two a reduced quality in the weld for a given setting, ok three... Shorten the life of the welder.
A properly sized extension cord will let the machine run the way it was suppose to and will allow it to have a full life, not shortened by over heating.

It is all based on the current draw of the machine in its highest setting of welding, check the manuals first.
Also, 10 gauge wire is rated for 30 amps and I do not know the length of the cord this is maintained, don't try to pull 40 through it.
12 gauge wire is good for only 20 amps a little more if doing 220 but without checking on current draw there is no way to determine the properly sized wire.

Good,luck on that.

Added Note:
Just looked it up, the Millermattic 211, draw 25 amps at 220 volts.
That means a minimum of a 30 amp circuit is needed, minimum of 10 gauge wire for the shop service and for short extension cords.
If the cords start to reach 75 to 100 feet or get warn hot during use, consider upping the gauge of the wire to 8 ga.

If you have an opportunity to purchase a properly rated extension cord from the manufacturer, maybe discounted because you will buy it at the same time, it might be worth it.
If you can work with electricity and know what you are doing build one with the properly sized components and play it safe.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #43  
My current set has 2 60amp fues. I dont have a breaker box. With the 250amp machine turned up to max, (not normal, only tigging aluminum), I can pop those fuses in just a few minutes. Normal stick welding I dont have a problem, but I never stick weld at 250 amps. I guess my point is, if you have to rewire, go bigger than you think you will need. better to have heavy gauge wire and not need it, than need heavy gauge wire and not have it. I plan on rewireing my shop next spring, installing a breaker box with 75amp circut to welder. Will also be adding some 30am 120v circuits. Every plug in my shop runs off one 30amp fuse, except for the lights. Gets sort of aggravating to be drilling with the drill press and the air compressor kicks on and blows the fuse.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder!
  • Thread Starter
#44  
Getting back to that extension cord idea, have you all found that buying a premade Nema 6-50 cord to match the miller MVP plug is ridiculously expensive?

10/3 RV cord would be overkill in current capability, but you can buy it for a buck a foot and just cut off the plug/receptacle and replace. What are you guys doing?

I'll be putting in a receptacle here at the garage and down at the shop, right next to the panel to avoid fishing wire, so I'm going to need 2-50ft cords. I'm reading that 12GA is plenty for the Miller 211 at 220 but it seems an odder size and more expensive.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #45  
Hey Colonel, I hesitated to reply to this thread because their are many other more knowledgable on the subject but I have the Miller 211 and love it. I bought it on line and there was a deal for 10% off entire purchase if a certain dollar amount of accessories was purchased. So I got the spool gun for eventual Aluminum work. I haven't done Al yet but the machine works awesome on 110v and 220v. I took it over to our TBN friend, Shield Arc (missing in action) who is a professional welder and he was very impressed. He had no trouble on 3/4in thick stuff.

I bought a large bottle of 75/25 and the HF welder cart w/drawers to hold everything. Very impressed with the cart too. Watch for a sale and use a 20% coupon. My only issue with my set up in my garage is the length of the power cord, so I will be doing something to extend my range as well. Long ago I found a heavy duty extension cord at Costco and cut the ends off to make it 220v for my air compressor and I use it also for my table saw. One of the smarter things on saving a little money that I have done looking back but copper was much cheaper then. Unfortunately not the right plugs for the welder. Following along to see your solution for the cord.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder!
  • Thread Starter
#46  
I'm not going to run any wire in the building per se - my use of the workshop for welding will be mostly temporary, plus the workshop is a block building. So I'm just going to install a permanent receptacle on the wall just outside the box, which is surface mounted. From there, I'll use my extension cord to get where I need to be.

Now, you all may not believe this, but here's the specs for extension cord from Miller:

Input Voltage Input Power Phase Hertz Conductor Size Max. Cord Length
120V 1 60 14 AWG 27 ft (8 m)
230V 1 60 14 AWG 53 ft (16 m)

Agreed, seems small, and I personally wouldn't use conductors that small at the welders maximum output unless I had no choice, because you'd be creating a bottleneck. If you did weld outside the duty cycle, the heated up conductor could restrict current flow even more and could shorten the life of the welder.

Keep this in mind: The input and output current considerations are not the same. High Voltage/Low Current in, Low Voltage/High Current out. That's why the welding leads are always so big.

The higher the voltage for a given load in watts, the lower the current. That's why the 230V cord can be twice as long.

I have welded with a Lincoln 120V thru a short, but not heavy enough cord and it worked but the performance is terrible. But I think going over 10 Gauge for this extension cord is well overkill.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way the Nema 6-50 Plug is wired, there's no Neutral - two hot legs and one ground. Because of that, you're actually only carrying 15A per 120V leg, NOT 30A on any one conductor.

The details of why this is so, I forget, it's been a really long time since the rudimentary AC power classes I had two decades ago, but in 120V wiring you'd be trying to carry all the amps on one wire, on 230V each wire does half.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #47  
I am pretty sure a 220v 30amp circuit will be carrying 30amp in each wire leg, not 15amps per leg.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #48  
If you can find an older Millermatic 200 you would be done. GREAT machine and the later ones are spoolgun ready.
I have a few welding machines, aSynchrowave 350LX (tig), a Hobart Handler 135, Esab 400 with feeder (400 amp beast), a Thermaldynamics 151 tig (dc only) and a Millermatic 200 (best 250 amp class mig ever made). And a couple of plasma cutters (should also be on your wish list).
 
   / Help me choose a new welder!
  • Thread Starter
#49  
Hey Colonel, I hesitated to reply to this thread because their are many other more knowledgable on the subject but I have the Miller 211 and love it. I bought it on line and there was a deal for 10% off entire purchase if a certain dollar amount of accessories was purchased. So I got the spool gun for eventual Aluminum work. I haven't done Al yet but the machine works awesome on 110v and 220v. I took it over to our TBN friend, Shield Arc (missing in action) who is a professional welder and he was very impressed. He had no trouble on 3/4in thick stuff.

I bought a large bottle of 75/25 and the HF welder cart w/drawers to hold everything. Very impressed with the cart too. Watch for a sale and use a 20% coupon. My only issue with my set up in my garage is the length of the power cord, so I will be doing something to extend my range as well. Long ago I found a heavy duty extension cord at Costco and cut the ends off to make it 220v for my air compressor and I use it also for my table saw. One of the smarter things on saving a little money that I have done looking back but copper was much cheaper then. Unfortunately not the right plugs for the welder. Following along to see your solution for the cord.

Thanks Dragon, I'm glad to hear that so many people are happy wtih these welders, I haven't heard but one negative comment, and it regarded a failure of some sort the week after the welder was purchased. Well, this kind of thing does happen.... But I'm guessing the guy, after leaving the comment, was well taken care of.

Like was said, I think there's a sweet spot out there for 10 Gauge RV extension cords. I've got about 150 feet of it in Nevada where I store an RV I use a few weeks a year, and I found it on sale for below $1 a foot and regularly one can buy a "camco" brand 50 footer for about $60 bucks.

I am thinking though, about a Nema 14-50. This plug and receptacle are both 4 conductor. They are widely used for 50A RV service, and so there's two 120V hot legs, a neutral, and a ground. The RV actually uses the power at 120V, and usually two separate "panels" where one AC unit is on one leg, and the 2nd AC on the other leg.

So it's got what you need for how the miller welder's 230V MVP plug is wired (2 120V hots and a ground), but also a neutral wire that would allow some interesting possibilities. Not only could you still use it for 50A RV extension cord, but you could power 230V welder, and also grinder, drill, perhaps even a 120V plasma torch if that's what you happened to have....

How you'd do that, is a power distribution box on the end of the cable, that had both Nema 6-50 for Miller 211, Possibly a Nema 14-50 for the RV (if the need to use it were to arise) and also a duplex receptacle for 120V for a grinder or drill.... Obviously, you would not be operating the welder at full power while running a grinder - we'll go with that assumption.

Now, there are naysayers about the code of all that, etc.... I hear ya, but just because it's not code for a traditional building doesn't mean it can't be safe. What's code in the US might not be code in other countries, etc etc.

I think the biggest issue, folks say, is having potentially twice the current available on the breaker than what a traditional 120V breaker would supply. So, you have a 40A breaker 230V wired to Nema 14-50, and at the end of the cord you tie one of the legs to a 120V receptacle. I read in another thread that you're potentially supplying 40A to your failed grinder (if it failed) - but really, are you? You're only supplying 1 of the hot legs to the duplex, so that's half of 40A, so it's just 20A, and 20A receptacles at 120V are not out of place in a working shop are they?

Another guy on that thread, said that if you mounted a marine-type pushbutton breaker for the 120V duplex you would have code then. Make it a GFCI and you're doubly covered and safe.

So I'm considering this too, trying to figure out if it makes sense. I have build a similar box for my RV in Nevada I was talking about, so I run power to the RV and also have additional 120V power for battery chargers, power tools, lighting, etc.... So I can tell you, that's much better than running 3 different long cords.
 
   / Help me choose a new welder! #50  
you also know that given your enthusiasm in this thread for craving welders...that one day you'll also have to own an arc welder...for some applications/fabricating, there's no substitute. be sure to get one with reverse polarity. yeah, hobart & miller are about the same machine on the entry level reverse pol series, hobart cheaper and 10 amps more on RP. copper windings... see, i've already got you going .:licking:
 

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