Help me fix my starter

[dieselfuelonly]

Hey guys, I was thinking about posting this in the Yanmar section, but I figured its a general problem so anyone who knows about starters could probably help me.

Anyway, here is my problem:

Every once and a while (every 2-5 starts) my starter will not engage the flywheel. I turn the key and get a bunch of grinding. So it is not sticking, it is trying to make contact, but not fully.

If it does that, I will "bump" the starter by turning the key to start and back again really fast. MOST of the time it will then engage. Then I try to start it normally again and sometimes it will catch and other times it won't.

The very first time it happened I took the starter off to see if there were damaged teeth on the flywheel or starter. Flywheel was fine, starter had obviously had some wear on as expected, but it was not worn enough that it shouldn't have been engaging.

So my guess is that sometimes whatever mechanism that causes the starter to throw the starter gear out to make contact with the flywheel is not letting the gear out far enough/fast enough to mesh the the gears on the flywheel and turn it over sometimes.

But that is just my newbie guess.

Can anyone give me some advice?

Thanks!

Dennis

 

[dsgsr]

Dennis, Sounds like the starter needs a clutch kit. If you're mechanically inclined it's pretty easy to replace one. DON'T go to the John Deere store to get it. Go to a local Starter/alternator repair shop and have them either repair it or order you a new one, (around $100.00 plus shipping). The JD store was asking $300. for the kit when I was looking and $600. for a new starter. Found I could get a new Starter for around 250. plus shipping. My John Deere/Yanmar tractor has a Denso starter on it, so yours may be also.

David

 

[dbdartman]

Dennis, before you spend any money on a starter or parts, I'd pull the starter off, disassemble the solenoid, clean it inside, & clean & lubricate the shaft the starter gear rides on. Sounds to me like the shaft or solenoid is dirty & not pulling the starter gear fully onto the ring gear. It won't cost you any money (just time & don't we all have plenty of that ), could fix your problem, & if it doesn't, then you have experience (which is what you get right after you needed it... ).

Good luck!

 

[dieselfuelonly]

Thanks for the help guys.

Do you have any links on starter repair that could guide me?

I know nothing about them.

 

[SnowRidge]

Dennis, before you spend any money on a starter or parts, I'd pull the starter off, disassemble the solenoid, clean it inside, & clean & lubricate the shaft the starter gear rides on. Sounds to me like the shaft or solenoid is dirty & not pulling the starter gear fully onto the ring gear. It won't cost you any money (just time & don't we all have plenty of that ), could fix your problem, & if it doesn't, then you have experience (which is what you get right after you needed it... ).

Good luck!

Been there, done that, and saved a bundle.

Just start unbolting things. It's the best way to learn.

 

[Botabill]

Sounds like a solinoid problem to me as well. Cleaning and lubricating may do it. I had a car once that the same would happen to it. Apparently it was a common problem in that make of car and a mechanic showed me how to tap the starter with a hammer if it wouldn't engage. Worked everytime. I never fixed it but I always carried hammer in the car to tap the starter every few months when it acted up. I recently bought a CASE 446. Same thing happens on it once in a while. I just tap the starter and away it goes. I may fix it someday when I have nothing better to do.

 

[SnowRidge]

Sounds like a solinoid problem to me as well. Cleaning and lubricating may do it. I had a car once that the same would happen to it. Apparently it was a common problem in that make of car and a mechanic showed me how to tap the starter with a hammer if it wouldn't engage. Worked everytime. I never fixed it but I always carried hammer in the car to tap the starter every few months when it acted up. I recently bought a CASE 446. Same thing happens on it once in a while. I just tap the starter and away it goes. I may fix it someday when I have nothing better to do.

I have a Poulan lawn tractor with a Brigs I/C engine. It does that same thing every now and then, and the cure is the same, a tap with a hammer. I even taught my wife where to whack it, if it wouldn't start.

So far, I haven't bothered to pull that one to clean and lube it.

 

[Bird]

It does that same thing every now and then, and the cure is the same, a tap with a hammer. I even taught my wife where to whack it, if it wouldn't start.

I haven't had that work since my 1970 Oldmobile Delta 88. But like several other posters in this thread, the last starter I worked on was on my brother's Suzuki Sidekick. It wouldn't start at all, so we removed the starter for him to take it with him when he went to buy a new one. However, I decided to take it apart first to see if I could tell what was wrong with it; didn't find anything wrong with it besides being dirty and when cleaned up, it worked just fine and we re-installed it.

 

[dieselfuelonly]

Thanks for the help guys. I guess the first thing I will try is the next time the starter acts up just give it a tap with a hammer. Where exactly should I tap it, on the area on top of the starter (I'm assuming thats the solenoid) or the starter case itself?

If that doesn't cure the problem (or fix it on the first tap ), then I will take it off the tractor and take a look for anything obviously wrong and maybe try to lubricate it some.

Next would be to take it to a place that works on starters, unless it is a very simple process to take it apart, fix it, and put it back together.

Thanks for the help ya'll!

Dennis

 

[SnowRidge]

Thanks for the help guys. I guess the first thing I will try is the next time the starter acts up just give it a tap with a hammer. Where exactly should I tap it, on the area on top of the starter (I'm assuming thats the solenoid) or the starter case itself?

If that doesn't cure the problem (or fix it on the first tap ), then I will take it off the tractor and take a look for anything obviously wrong and maybe try to lubricate it some.

Next would be to take it to a place that works on starters, unless it is a very simple process to take it apart, fix it, and put it back together.

Thanks for the help ya'll!

Dennis

Tap the starter case.

They generally aren't hard to work on. Disassembly should be obvious. Pro labor usually costs too much to get them to clean and lube it. They will almost always replace it. Save some money and do it yourself.

 

[wrenchturner]

When you inspected the flywheel did you turn the flywheel and check all the way around or just where the starter was at? Too me it sounds like the flywheel teeth are worn. Each time an engine stops it will always stop on the compression stroke thus the starter drive pinion engages the flywheel ring gear at the same places each time. For a 4 cylinder engine this is 2 places, for a 3 cyl, 3 places and for a two cylinder, the same place everytime.

If the ring gear is worn and the engine is not externally ballanced by the flywheel, you can simply reindex the flywheel on the crankshaft.

 

[diyDave]

That tapping on your starter you hear is the sound of your permanent magnets breaking into little bits. Don't hit on the side of the starter tube, tap the front casting near the solenoid, lightly with the smallest ball peen hammer ever made, and only in the case of the direst emergency. I have a friend who rebuilds all of mine, and every time I'm over there, there's one more with busted magnets. That remedy is fine for the older, non magnetic starters, but to do it to something with magnets is asking for trouble! Best thing to do is to start at the battery, clean both terminals, inspect cables for corrosion/broken insulation or green copper in the wire. Then test the battery with a load tester to see if it is still good, then check the ground wire, to be sure it has good contact with the frame/engine, then check terminal at the solenoid for corrosion/tightness, then check voltage at the solenoid loaded and unloaded. If the voltage drops as you are cranking, recheck all connections and battery voltage. If necessary, take the starter apart, and look and smell the solenoid for evidence of burning or sticking. In 20 or so years of messing with these starters, other than abuse, low battery voltage causing solenoid failure is the most common problem I have seen!

 

[dieselfuelonly]

When you inspected the flywheel did you turn the flywheel and check all the way around or just where the starter was at? Too me it sounds like the flywheel teeth are worn. Each time an engine stops it will always stop on the compression stroke thus the starter drive pinion engages the flywheel ring gear at the same places each time. For a 4 cylinder engine this is 2 places, for a 3 cyl, 3 places and for a two cylinder, the same place everytime.

If the ring gear is worn and the engine is not externally ballanced by the flywheel, you can simply reindex the flywheel on the crankshaft.

Whey you say "re-index" the flywheel, do you mean that I would have to separate the tractor, and turn the flywheel so that teeth that have never been "started against" would be where the starter is?

I think the flywheel is fine however, I think the solenoid is probably causing the problem.

 

[wrenchturner]

In your original post you said the starter was making a "grinding" sound. I assume you know the difference between this sound and the sound of a starter chattering due to low voltage due to low battery, poor connections in wiring etc. I know it is sometimes difficult to describe sounds and unfortunately I cannot hear written words as sounds. Anytime, anytime you have a starter off, a transmission out etc. visually inspect all of the flywheel teeth. Rotate the engine and inspect the teeth all the way around.

As far as reindexing the flywheel, I had never thought about this until about 25 years ago I worked with a German mechanic. The teeth were bad on a Peugot 4 cylinder engine. He simply removed the flywheel and turned it 90 degrees.

 

[dieselfuelonly]

Yeah I'm sure its not because of low voltage, its a definate grinding sound due to the starter gear not meshing completely with the flywheel.

 

[dsgsr]

Dennis, Would you please let us know what the problem ends up being. That will be good info. for others having the same problem.

David

 

[dieselfuelonly]

Hey, just came to do that right now .

Today it started acting up again. After 5 tries I got a little ticked off and went ahead and took the starter off. Started by removing the battery cables. Sadly I randomly decided to take positive off first. Man some sparks went flyin' when my pliers touched the radiator support .

Decided to go ahead and take negative off before I finished positive. That worked much better .

Anyway, I got the starter off.

I gave ita good shaking and got a little grease on my finger and put it on the shaft that the gear slides up and down on. I had it smooth enough so that by tipping the starter up/down the gear would slide up and down the shaft.

Put it back on the tractor and it started right up first time.

After that I just went for a quick drive around the yard and then parked it.

So maybe I fixed the problem, or maybe having the starter off and banging it around a little bit just temporarily made it start that time. I will give the complete update in the next few days (I use my tractor every day, start it up and shut it down probably 2-3x / day on average) and well lets just hope that a little grease was all it needed!

 

[gemini5362]

Ok I am going to disagree with the majority of posters on here ( isnt that a surpise)

Getting a starter repaired is a minor inconvenience and maybe some money. Getting a flywheel replaced is a major inconvenience and if you have it done a lot of money. Get the starter fixed soon bendix issues on the starter become flywheel issues pretty quickly. Currently my job title is industrial electronic technician. I am very aware of how to take starters apart and fix them. I have not done it since I had to repair the starter on my 8N years ago i bought new brushes for it and while I had it apart found the spring holder was broken. I went to the local starter rebuilder and asked him if he could get get the new part. He offered to just go ahead and fix the starter. He replaced the whole brush assembly with new brushes for less money than I originally paid for the brushes. If you have someone there that has a good reputation for working on starters take the starter to him and have him check it out and see if there is something wrong with it. My rebuilder gives me a max price it might be if he replaces everything but the case and then charges me for the parts he has to replace plus the labor to replace them.

 

[SnowRidge]

Hey, just came to do that right now .

Today it started acting up again. After 5 tries I got a little ticked off and went ahead and took the starter off. Started by removing the battery cables. Sadly I randomly decided to take positive off first. Man some sparks went flyin' when my pliers touched the radiator support .

Decided to go ahead and take negative off before I finished positive. That worked much better .

Anyway, I got the starter off.

I gave ita good shaking and got a little grease on my finger and put it on the shaft that the gear slides up and down on. I had it smooth enough so that by tipping the starter up/down the gear would slide up and down the shaft.

Put it back on the tractor and it started right up first time.

After that I just went for a quick drive around the yard and then parked it.

So maybe I fixed the problem, or maybe having the starter off and banging it around a little bit just temporarily made it start that time. I will give the complete update in the next few days (I use my tractor every day, start it up and shut it down probably 2-3x / day on average) and well lets just hope that a little grease was all it needed!

Sounds like it may have been a simple lubrication issue and you've gotten it licked. Plus you got a bonus. Now you know why you should always remove the negative battery lead first.

 

[mrutkaus]

Depending on where or if the drips go, you might try squirting a lot of brake cleaner all around in there (not in the motor) with a wand, letting it dry or blowing it out with compressed air, then squirting in some spray grease or what is sold as "chain lube".

It might work, I'm only saying this method because you are hesitant about taking it apart and cleaning it.

Good luck,

Mike