Help, the dealer let someone steal my 2210!!!

[Rayder]

Plowrup,

First, I think your post was excellent. You have made many good points, and I generally agree with what you have said.

The only thing I would add is that if you are holding yourself out as a business, then you have certain responsibilities to your customers. If a business cannot afford to operate in a manner to uphold its responsibilities, then it is only a matter of time before that business is no longer. In other words, it is a cost of doing business.

THe cost of taking some reasonable security measures are not only going to protect your customers, but it will be cheaper in the long run to dealing with problems like this. Adequate outdoor lighting at night ... surveillance cameras to deter and help catch criminals ... stronger locks on the gates ... etc etc.

Maybe this was a small rural dealer that hasn't had to deal with theft at this level. Maybe the dealer was lazy or ignorant or knew there was a problem and is just a poor business person. I don't know. What I do know is we shouldn't excuse this lack of responsibility. And we certainly should not allow businesses to contract away their negligence. If this dealer is a good business person then he will do something about his problem, and he will take care of his customer ... if he doesn't, then he shouldn't be in business.

 

[plowrup]

Rayder,

Thank you for your insightful post. At my Dealership, we do have surveillance cameras, good lighting, but due to our facility layout we cannot use gates or fences.

This is a difficult situation for all involved. Hopefully one or both Insurance Companies will step up to the plate-

 

[Rayder]

Robison,

I think the difference in opinion that we have is that I'm talking about who should be responsible for the loss, and you are talking about who might pay for the loss (not necessarily the same person). What I think you are failing to recognize is that there is a cost to making a claim on an insurance policy ... you know this.

If you are saying that dealers just don't have the money to take responsiblity for this stuff, then let me ask you this question. If a person comes in an buys a car from you, and a week later they come back and say "I can't afford this car, can I return it?" ... what is your answer? Your answer would be no, if the purchaser couldn't afford the responsibility of the car payment, he shouldn't have purchased it. Likewise, if the dealer can't afford the responsibility of taking possession of its customer's property, then the dealer shouldn't do it.

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( cost of taking some reasonable security measures )</font>

The problem is with that word "reasonable"; you can get lots of opinions as to how much security is reasonable. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Obviously, if I'm the one who suffers a loss, I'll think security was not adequate, and I might not even think it was "reasonable". /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Rayder]

Bird,

You bring up a valid point. Reasonableness is a judgment call. When we talk about reasonableness, we talk about it in terms of what the average person would think is reasonable ... not what a specific person thinks is reasonable. So, it doesn't matter whether the dealer thinks it is reasonable to leave the tractor along side the road with the keys in it, the average person would conclude that this is not reasonable. THis is an absurd example, and when you get into the grey areas of reasonableness, it is a difficult question.

I thought of a real life example to illustrate the point that I am making between who is responsible, and the person who will pay for the loss. If Bird is sitting at a stop light in his car and some joker isn't paying attention and plows into him, that person is responsible to Bird for the loss he causes. Let's say that the bad driver is insured by ABC insurance and they don't want to pay Bird for the loss caused by the bad driver. So Bird sues the bad driver and a jury gets to decide who is responsible and what the amount of the loss is. ABC insurance is obligated to hire a lawyer to defend bad driver. When they are in the court room, the bad driver will be sitting there with the attorney hired by the insurance company.

What most jurors don't understand is that Bird's lawyer is prohibited from telling the jurors that bad driver is being defended by ABC insurance, or even that bad driver has insurance. Why? Because ability to pay for Bird's loss is irrelevant to the question of whether bad driver is responsible for the accident. If Bird's lawyer even mentions the word insurance to the jury, there will be a mistrial.

Obviously insurance companies love this rule, because the natural tendency is for people to stick it to the insurance company. But if you think about it, the rule makes sense: look at who did the wrong ... it doesn't matter if the wrongdoer has 10 dollars or 10 million dollars.

 

[BIG_R_Jr_3]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am an automobile dealer and I have faced similar situations myself. )</font>

In all due respect sir, your are an "AUTOMOBILE DEALER" with completely Different Insurance Policy Coverages.

 

[BIG_R_Jr_3]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">(

If it was your under his control his Ins should pay.

DPR )</font>

"Under your control" is the key . . .

If your employee takes it for a test drive and crashes that's under your control so your (dealer) insurance pays.

If it is on your lift being serviced and it falls off, that's under your control and your insurance pays.

If it's parked in your fenced strorage area and someone cuts the fence and steals it, that's not under your control and you took reasonable care . . . your insurance does not pay.

A dealer's insurance protects the dealer from his own actions including negligence. It does not protect his customers property from all hazards just because the car is parked at the dealer.

When a car is parked outside a dealership at night and someone comes along and stels it the situation is no differenet from a car being parked at a movie theitre or mall and being stolen there . . . do you expect them to pay, too?

There is a form of coverage called "direct primary" whereby a customer car will be covered for all hazards but it is not required by law and many places don't use it. )</font>

The above examples of your post completely involves an Automobile Dealer and/or Auto Garage. We call this form of Insurance "Garage Keepers Liability Insurance Policy.

Garage Keepers Liability Insurance is required by law in most all states for Automobile Dealer and Auto Garages that do service work and or repairs. The best example of this coverage would arise if I took my auto in for brake service and upon leaving I go to the first red light push brake pedal to the floor and don't stop until I hit something. Garage or Dealer would be liable for that incident & would be covered under their Garage Keepers Liability Policy.

A Garage Keepers Liability Policy is Rated by Your SIC classifacation code, gross annual receipts and the amount of coverage and # of previous losses you have reported. Note Garage Keepers and Workers' Compensation Policies are the main insurance policies that are rated using previous losses as a determining rate structure in determing your rate and future rates upon renewal in the Property and Casualty field of Insurance. All other forms of Property and Casualty use a set state filed and approved system of rating insurance. Insurance is a heavy regulated industry and thats a good thing for the consumer, this way theres no discrimnation involving rates. Example If you & I live across the steet from each other and we want insurance for our home through the same Ins. company & same amount of coverage our rate should be exactly the same. The rate is filed with the state in which they chose to do business.

In addition to the business the Owner or Company should purchase whats called a "BOP" form of Insurance. "BOP" stands for Business Owners Policy, which is very simialiar to a standard homeowners policy except designed for businesses. This form of Insurance covers both Property and Liability forms of coverages and benefits trailored for the business needs. There are many number of riders and or coverages that can be added to the BOP which really help a business owner trailor his coverages to meet his specific needs without having to overinsure or completely underinsure their business.

This form of Insurance is very reasonably priced and is Rated based on # of yrs. in business, gross annual reciepts, Coverages wanted & amounts, type of business and other factors. Your paid losses will always be asked on any new application for coverage in the past 5 years and reason for them as well as any steps on improving those areas to prevent same such losses again. However the losses are not the key factor in the rate calulation, basically used for underwriting review and part of their decision to insure or not... This type of policy is subject to audit as well, so estimating annual receipts is real key here, or you will see an additional bill at your fiscal year end.

Remember one important thing about Insurance, their is one or more forms of coverage that can cover any property or liability situation. The correct way is the way the business owner wants to protect himself and his assets against losses and to what extent does he himself want to risk. That must be determined by the Agent and the Owner together going over all the various coverages and prices till a decision is reached for that calendar year. As we all know changes can and will occur, see you again next year unless you need me sooner. Your agent should try not to over lap coverages from one policy to the other, however if it should occur upon the type of loss would dictate which policy is primary and used first till policy limit is reached.

I currently and have held the following Property and Casualty Insurance Licenses in Florida since 1980 (2-18, 2-19,2-20) and Life Insurance and Vabiable annuties as well. The state of Florida requires me to complete 32 hours of continuing education every 2 years since being licensed to keep all of my Licenses current and up to date with all the changes in our industry. Sorry guys for the long explaination but I felt to many people here where going way off course and getting alarmed for all the wrong reasons........

 

[BillyP]

<font color="blue"> Example If you & I live across the steet from each other and we want insurance for our home through the same Ins. company & same amount of coverage our rate should be exactly the same. The rate is filed with the state in which they chose to do business.
</font>

I've heard some insurance companies can base your rate on your credit score. Is that fact or fiction?

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( fact or fiction )</font>

Fact.

 

[BIG_R_Jr_3]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> Example If you & I live across the steet from each other and we want insurance for our home through the same Ins. company & same amount of coverage our rate should be exactly the same. The rate is filed with the state in which they chose to do business.
</font>

I've heard some insurance companies can base your rate on your credit score. Is that fact or fiction? )</font>

What your refering to is that today Property and Casualty Insurance Companies are using what's called a "CLUE Report" which checks Credit and Criminal reports as well as past paid Insurance Claims paid out. This practice has been active for atleast the last 15 years or so in Florida. However it can't be used to determine your rate, only decision will be made as to issue a policy or not...

Life and Health Ins. Co. have been using a "MIB" report (medical investigation buearu) since way back in time before me to share all medical and investigate any records or concerns that may arise.

At first my thoughts were its going to be harder to get all policies issued, which hasn't been the case. This underwriting requirement has acutually helped us write more clean business with less likelyhood of a loss. Which helps mantain rate structure.