Help with farmpro 2420

[thetester]

I hope somebody will give me a little direction or outside insight. Please!

I have freshly rebuild this little tractor last summer. Everything new but the block. It was meticulously build to the best specs i coukd obtain. Furthermore, It was used lightly and only a few hours this year. Never had an issue of any kind.

After sitting a few weeks, I was getting ready to use this tractor on a big tilling job so I checked my oil as I routinely do. It was a good bit high! It looked normal but a little thin and smelled a little used. I figured I'll just change the oil to be safe.

I also figured maybe a bad seal in the hydraulic pump to lookout for. When I pulled the oil plug about 2-3 cups of pure green antifreeze came gushing out.

Holy s%@^ RIGHT!!

There is zero oil mixed in the oil. No milkyness at all. There is zero oil in the coolant. There was antifreeze droplets all on the rocker assembly but no milkyness. The radiator coolant was below the core suggesting it in fact leaked in the case.

I pulled the head and no visible signs of a blown gasket. The pistons do not look as if coolant has sat on them etc.

I do not see any visible cracks in the sleeves or the head.

What would you look for and what would your process of elimination be?? Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees. I'll upload some pics and will gladly upload more if any kind soul will offer some help!!

 

[thetester]

Here are a few pics of the head and cylinders.

 

[Southernspeed]

I know nothing about that engine but if it has a mechanically driven water pump, that's another place coolant could enter the block.
Just seen your photos, if it hasn't been run, forget my pump thoughts, coolants too high in the engine.

 

[thetester]

It does have a mechanical pump. What os puzzling is the oil is not milky. I have no idea when this happened but nothing indicates it's been ran like this.

It's almost like a frozen cracked block or cracked sleeve. This antifreeze is new and like 30 below plus I live in Alabama.

I have no idea where to start or what I'm even looking for at this point. There are literally no indicators.

 

[Bob Rooks]

If it's a wet sleeve engine then one or more of the liner seals has failed. Rolled or cut O-rings are usually the culprit.

 

[thetester]

That's my sneaking suspicions also. I'm not sure how to rule out a head gasket or the head though.

 

[Bob Rooks]

That's my sneaking suspicions also. I'm not sure how to rule out a head gasket or the head though.

Those are not likely from just sitting, and the oil hadn't emulsified.

 

[piper184]

It appears that you got lucky and this has probably not done any damage. Good job on being observant and cautious when things don't look right. Many people would run it until it quit.

I suspect the head and I think the block is fine. Here is why:

Coolant in the rocker cover.
Coolant level with the top of the block.
Coolant got into the oil galley and ran all the way to the pan.
No emulsification means it happened after the engine was shut down or very shortly before that.

If the block cracked the coolant would have drained to the level of the crack and it couldn't have gotten to the rockers without mixing with the oil.
It is not likely the water pump has access to the oil galley unless it is internally driven by gears. It is most likely driven by the fan belt.
Coolant on the rockers without emulsification likely also rules out head gasket and sleeve seals.
It is possible the head cracked as it was starting to cool down but there was still pressure in the coolant system which sprayed it into the rocker cover, or perhaps very shortly before the last shutdown and it didn't get down to the oil pump in time to be picked up.

I would get the head really, REALLY clean and look carefully for cracks on the rocker side of things especially. It may need to be put back on the engine and torqued down to get the crack to open up enough to see. With the head on and torqued with the coolant system re-assembled, you could try pressurizing the system to see if that helps find the leak.

If that doesn't work, I would look for a dye penetrate type leak detector and apply it while it was tight on the block. Then remove and inspect. Still nothing? Do the dye test on the block side of the head. Keeping in mind that the break may be internal and not visible.

If you still can't find it, look for a place that can do a magna-flux test. Although at that point it may cost more than a new head.

You said everything but the block was new, does that include the head? If so is it still under warranty?


Good luck finding the cause and please keep this post updated for others in the future.

Stuart

 

[thetester]

It appears that you got lucky and this has probably not done any damage. Good job on being observant and cautious when things don't look right. Many people would run it until it quit.

I suspect the head and I think the block is fine. Here is why:

Coolant in the rocker cover.
Coolant level with the top of the block.
Coolant got into the oil galley and ran all the way to the pan.
No emulsification means it happened after the engine was shut down or very shortly before that.

If the block cracked the coolant would have drained to the level of the crack and it couldn't have gotten to the rockers without mixing with the oil.
It is not likely the water pump has access to the oil galley unless it is internally driven by gears. It is most likely driven by the fan belt.
Coolant on the rockers without emulsification likely also rules out head gasket and sleeve seals.
It is possible the head cracked as it was starting to cool down but there was still pressure in the coolant system which sprayed it into the rocker cover, or perhaps very shortly before the last shutdown and it didn't get down to the oil pump in time to be picked up.

I would get the head really, REALLY clean and look carefully for cracks on the rocker side of things especially. It may need to be put back on the engine and torqued down to get the crack to open up enough to see. With the head on and torqued with the coolant system re-assembled, you could try pressurizing the system to see if that helps find the leak.

If that doesn't work, I would look for a dye penetrate type leak detector and apply it while it was tight on the block. Then remove and inspect. Still nothing? Do the dye test on the block side of the head. Keeping in mind that the break may be internal and not visible.

If you still can't find it, look for a place that can do a magna-flux test. Although at that point it may cost more than a new head.

You said everything but the block was new, does that include the head? If so is it still under warranty?


Good luck finding the cause and please keep this post updated for others in the future.

Stuart

Thank you so much for your insight! Last night I suspected a rolled Oring on a sleeve. The more I laid in bed thinking. There are two Orings. It would have to roll both or pinch/ break both.

Possible YES likely No. Then I kept thinking about the coolant so high in the engine. All the way on the rockers. I thought, well it might have just got pumped up to thr top and just not mixed with the oil yet.

I even thought maybe this is a vindictive family member trying to do damage by putting coolant in the tractor through the valve cover cause they didn't know where the oil fill was.

Then I remember the coolant was low in the radiator.

This is the strangest, head scratching scenario I have ever witnessed. It's almost like no explanation really fits 100%.

This scenario sounds the most likely and fitting. I'll see what I can find. I could barely sleep thinking about it. I think I'll spend the day trying to Sherlock this thing.

Thank you all for the replies and willingness to offer help!

 

[Southernspeed]

Just another random thought, but is there an oil to water cooler on there, like at the oil filter ?

 

[thetester]

No she's stone age basic.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Coolant in the rocker cover.

1) This could very well be coolant condensed inside the valve cover due to temperature differences. The path being through the push rod passages.

Coolant level with the top of the block.

2) Isn't that from not draining the coolant prior to removing the head?

Coolant got into the oil galley and ran all the way to the pan.
No emulsification means it happened after the engine was shut down or very shortly before that.

3) Plausible but not likely, because there is no open path from the gallery to the sump. Coolant would have to displace an awful lot of oil through very restrictive passages (oil pump, crank and camshaft bearings, etc.).

If the block cracked the coolant would have drained to the level of the crack and it couldn't have gotten to the rockers without mixing with the oil.

4) See #3.

It is not likely the water pump has access to the oil galley unless it is internally driven by gears. It is most likely driven by the fan belt.

5) This is correct. No gear driven coolant pumps on these engines. There is a tattle-tale weep hole to the atmosphere in the coolant pump housing next to the seal to detect leaking seals.

Coolant on the rockers without emulsification likely also rules out head gasket and sleeve seals.
It is possible the head cracked as it was starting to cool down but there was still pressure in the coolant system which sprayed it into the rocker cover, or perhaps very shortly before the last shutdown and it didn't get down to the oil pump in time to be picked up.

6) Plausible, but must be verified with hydro or Magnaflux (MPI) tests.

I would look for a dye penetrate type leak detector and apply it while it was tight on the block. Then remove and inspect. Still nothing? Do the dye test on the block side of the head. Keeping in mind that the break may be internal and not visible.

7) In lieu of an MPI test, you can try this method using a liquid dye test (use both cans).

https://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Magnaflux-Spotcheck-Developer-11-06oz/dp/B08MHYXH7B/ref=asc_df_B08MHYXH7B/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475689981997&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11974526181292402471&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033469&hvtargid=pla-1162276711405&psc=1

If you still can't find it, look for a place that can do a magna-flux test. Although at that point it may cost more than a new head.

8) Typically, MPI tests run ~$200 for a block, ~$130 for a head. Prices will vary with the shop.

You said everything but the block was new, does that include the head? If so is it still under warranty?

9) Good question.

Good luck finding the cause and please keep this post updated for others in the future.

10) Yes, please.

Stuart

11) Respectfully submitted,
Bob.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Just another random thought, but is there an oil to water cooler on there, like at the oil filter ?

No oil coolers on these engines.

 

[Bob Rooks]

Another thought occurred to me. Are there core plugs in the head under the valve cover? Is that cylinder head new?

 

[thetester]

Yes I didn't think of that. There are freeze plugs under the rocker arms. However I think I'm on the trail.

I put it all back together with a new head gasket. I pressurized the coolant side to 20 psi. I've got drips coming from the rear sleeve. It's not really clear if it's from the outside of the sleeve etc.

It has to be torn back down and inspected for a cracked sleeve or a rolled pinched Oring. Possibly even a cracked block around that area.

I am praying for a Oring issue.

Just wondering!!!??? I've never had an issue in which I've had to rebuild a fresh rebuild before. Just thinking if I could reuse the same main bearings rod bearings and rings etc.

I've always heard once the rings take a set that's it. If you reuse they will fail even if they go back in the same cylinder etc.

Anyone got experience here on the topic???

I guess I'll get her torn down tomorrow. Days are wasting and spring is gonna get away from me.

I thank yall for trying to help!!

 

[Bob Rooks]

Just wondering!!!??? I've never had an issue in which I've had to rebuild a fresh rebuild before. Just thinking if I could reuse the same main bearings rod bearings and rings etc.

I've always heard once the rings take a set that's it. If you reuse they will fail even if they go back in the same cylinder etc.

Anyone got experience here on the topic???

Yep. You can reuse just about every component in a low-hour rebuild as long as there is no physical damage. You can reuse low-hour rings in new liners on the same pistons, but rings are inexpensive anyway. Main, rod and cam bearings are fine if they mic good - check for pitting, corrosion, and wire drawing.