Helppppppppp!!!

[JATO_RaT]

We lost the pilot light on our floor furnace at our cabin at Lake Tahoe. A bad pilot generator. Everything froze, 3 broken pipes inside and split toilet fill valves. I repaired all the leaks, and am drying things out.
My question I figure might be answered by you folks out in the Midwest or East coast. Since this cabin is not occupied continuously, I would like to shut the water off when were not there, but the problem is, we have renters, to ask them not only to turn it on, shut off a drain valve for the pipes and do everything in reverse when leaving could prove a problem. Is there another way. We will still leave the furnace on 45 degrees, but should we ever loose the pilot light again, this problem will happen again. I would like to see something like a 12 volt valve ( 12V for battery backup/run) where a simple flip of a switch that has the ability to turn the water on or off as well as drain the system depending on the result desired, (coming or going) Anyone ever heard of this type of setup? Any other advice. Tahoe gets cold, down in the 20's and sometimes into the teens, but thats about it. Thanks, Rat...

 

[heehaw]

you could use one of the lawn sprinkler valves, put it in the water line to your house/cabin, but it uses 24 volts ac..you can get the controller too, total price from lowes would be @ $75. put a second one on the line to open up and let the water drain..when the main solenoid is on, make this one off, when the main one is off, make this one on..this will stop any flooding, but i doubt it would drain the lines well enough to keep them from freezing. you could try some portable electric heaters that have thermostats, keep them turned below the temp of the furnace..but above freezing..just in case the furnace doesn't work, again??
heehaw

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Rat,

Don't know about such a valve, although it sounds interesting. Would a flood/freeze alarm work? These usually will dial your home phone number or that of a neighbor to sound the alert. You might also consider an electric baseboard back up heater, although with renters that might pose a problem.

Steve

 

[edt]

HI rat 1 problem i see if somebody could throw a switch their would be no freeze up another idea how about a control sytem you can call to get room temp of the cabin from a remote area i have seen these maybe it could call you if temp got down around the 40' room temp
Just a thought sorry about freeze up good luc
EDT

 

[MikePA]

Rat, I found this <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.sidharvey.com/public/sidspec.htm>Freeze Warning Device</A>. Not what you were looking for, but perhaps if you know there was a problem someone who lives nearby could visit your cabin and take the necessary steps.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Rat,

The cabins we used all had to be manually drained each winter. The people I know who don't "close" the cabins for the winter season have an alarm that goes off if the inside temp drops below a certain point. You need to have someone in close proximity to check the place out if the alarm goes off. Some home security systems have this feature as an add on. Completely different solution to your issue, but thought I'd throw it out.

Bob

 

[Wingnut]

Rat,

12V solenoid water valves are quite common for hat water heating systems. They come both Normally On and Normally Off.
I have used one to control the water to the barn when I encountered a leak situation in the winter when I couldn't dig up the hydrant and fix it ... I inatlled it (a NC unit) at the house end and threw the switch whenever I went out there.
Using a similar theorum, one could wire:
1) a NO unit so that it would turn off the water, and
2) a NC unit to drain the house (if you have a low spot where most of the water would drain to.
Then, if the power went down, the NO unit would stop the water and the NC unit would open and allow the water to drain. Of course, the problem then is that you'd also have to put in some sort of relay that would activate when the pilot generator stopped providing the 27 mv current (or did the pilot stop because of a power outage?)

 

[Boondox]

Rat -- You mentioned a pilot "light." Can you convert to an electronic piezo device? We used to lose our pilot light whenever there was a fierce wind till we switched over. Of course the furnace won't work if the power goes out, but it comes right back on when power is restored.

Another thing we discovered is that it was possible to let the inside temp hover around freezing (40F is as low as our thermostat went, but the furnace was in a back room and the kitchen typically dropped to 30F) if we kept the ceiling fan turning slowly.

This probably didn't help you one bit, but I felt compelled to share some of our learnings.

Pete

 

[MDNick]

Rat,

I'd think it'd be easier to find a solution to the problem, not fixing the symptom. Water will always lie somewhere, toilet bowls, tanks, traps, etc. Seems this will have the potential to cause destructive problems. If it was just you, you'd be able to make the rounds and drain all these spots, but getting renters (timeshare type of situation?) to do this is not likely. The remote sensors sound great, so does an electric baseboard, with a locked out thermostat. One setting only, LOW. My .03, it's a new year, the rate has gone up.

BTW, nice skiing at Heavenly and Sierra, only 2 I have been to.

Nick

 

[MossRoad]

When we winterized the little league park, we had to open all of the valves, drain everything back to the hydrant buried below the frost line, and pour RV anti-freeze in all of the toilets. Kind of a pain. And like you mentioned, renters won't and probably shouldn't be asked to do it.

As others have mentioned, an electronic ignition on the furnace would be the first thing I'd do. Then look into the systems that you can call to check on the place. Some will call you, but I don't know if I'd trust that. If it died and never called you, you wouldn't know something was wrong.... unless you had something that called you at set intervals that you could expect to hear from on a scheduled basis. Then if you didn't hear from it, you could call it to check. I think there are some items that might suit your needs at<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.smarthome.com> www.smarthome.com</A>.

 

[Stonewall]

Sounds like you have three ways to go here. 1- don't put the renters in there anymore and once you shut down the cabin it stays shut down. 2- Get a property manager or just a handy man to look after the place for you. 3- put in some electric base board heaters to take over if the gas unit fails again. You can put in all the temperature limit devices you want but you'll still have water in the water heater and the toilet tanks which will freeze and when it warms up again you still have a problem. I would plan for the charges for the Handy man and up the rent to cover it.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Thanks for all the suggestions. After the problem happened, I started searching the web for various automation products. One product would call any number or up to 4 different numbers and give a prerecorded message such as " the temperature at your cabin is now 35 degrees" The message can be from many styles of sensors such as a smoke alarm or water alarm.

I will probably consider this as option 1. Our heater is a non electric floor furnace. The pilot generator creates enough power to maintain the pilot light valve open, open the main gas valve and run a thermostat. This is the first time we have lost the pilot light at a critical time. I would like to investigate a "electric match" or "electronic ignition". Being able to shut off the water was perhaps more of a knee jerk reaction although it still seems like a plausible thing to do via a motorized valve. We frequent the cabin throughout the winter and while turning away the renters is something we have thought about, it doesn't solve the problem of others in the family using it and understanding the mechanics of turning on/off supply & drain valves. For now, I will get a automated monitor, I found it here <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.smarthome.com/7005.html>http://www.smarthome.com/7005.html</A>

Thanks for the advice everyone, Rat...

 

[JohnMiller3]

<font color=blue>...and give a prerecorded message such as " the temperature at your cabin is now 35 degrees" ...</font color=blue>

How about a reversal... where you call back your camp and use an X10 remote type of device to restart the furnace...

...or solve the problem once and for all... and get the darn thing fixed... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[JATO_RaT]

John, I did fix the furnace, (it's only 2 years old), its the first thing I did. It's just one of those things, when a pilot generator goes out, it just goes out, no advanced warning. This furnace is super simple, no fan, not much different then the way a water heater works. You depress a pilot light bypass to light the pilot and hold it for a minute. Runs on natural gas and requires no electricity. Heres a better site for info on what I found - - - <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.sensaphone.com/>http://www.sensaphone.com/</A> /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gifRaT/w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I have used the model 1108 Sensaphone in the past. Worked very well.! I don't know if this model exist anymore, but it is still being used here. Good product. George

 

[heehaw]

how about a source for the 12 volt solenoids?? the rainbird 24v ac, not dc, units is all i have been able to locate.
heehaw

 

[Wingnut]

I would assume that they'd be available at any plumbing place that sold hrdronic heating equipment .... I bought the last 2 I used (no longer have hydronic heat, darn it) at Eagle Hardware before they folded their tents in Alberta. I'm pretty sure the box says Asco ... but I'll take a peek tonight when I get home ...