Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car

   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #2  
I've been working with Ford, the regional Counsel of Governments and the Airport for a year now on running two hydrogen powered shuttle buses in my shuttle fleet on the airport. Because of the state of the technology this is mainly for the publicity from the airport's and my side and as a testing ground for Ford. The hydrogen equipment turns a 24 passenger bus into a 12 passenger. The hydrogen fuel, which we have to buy is being offered at a discount rate of $10/gal but normally sells retail for $12 - $13 plus I have to install special venting equipment to be able to service the vehicle in my shop. The vehicle's hydrogen has to be vented before it can be brought into the shop. God forbid I have a service issue right after filling the tanks or I could lose $300 worth of fuel just to get it fixed.

I'm all for going Green and doing our part as I am currently converting over 100 vehicles in my fleet to propane but hydrogen powered vehicles are many, many years from being a viable option.

Regards,
Kevin
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #3  
The energy density of Hydrogen is really low. It takes as much energy to transport it as you get from it. IE it is like transporting fuel in aircraft to support a far flung military operation such as they did in China during WW2. They burnt as much fuel moving the gas as they actually delivered. True, it is very abundant, but it also takes a considerable ammount of energy to process it into a pure gas. About the best use for Hydrogen is in fuel cells, but even then, the ratio of Kilowatts in to the fuel and cell production to the ammount of KW out of the cell is huge. Being the smallest molecule on the periodic table, it is also easy to leak and requires special hardware. Since the energy density is low, the only way currently to get what most would term useable range out of a vehicle is to store it under VERY high pressure. Much more complex to store with a lot of special hardware and weight(24 PAX bus is now a 12 pax bus). High pressure fueling also means more energy involved in the fueling equipment. It all sounds pretty dangerous to me.

We have an infastructure based on a liquid fuel at atmospheic pressure with a certain ammount of BTU per gallon. I personally think we should go more in the direction of bio fuels as it can currently use this infastructure. Leave hydrogen to the space program for now where it makes pretty good electrical power via fuel cells in space where no other practical generator option is available for a mobile spacecraft.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #4  
RonMar said:
I personally think we should go more in the direction of bio fuels as it can currently use this infastructure. Leave hydrogen to the space program for now where it makes pretty good electrical power via fuel cells in space where no other practical generator option is available for a mobile spacecraft.

Bio fuel is just another way to rape the taxpayer.

Just my opinion.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Hydrogen obviously is not going to be a near term solution to our energy needs. My own opinion (and it is just an opinion) is that it has the potential to be a long term solution if a lot of other things fall into place in coming decades, like cheap reliable electricity from nuclear fusion, and using the electricity for hydrolysis to make hydrogen from water in almost every locality. I think that within a hundred years, this could possibly come to pass. Right now, though, I'm for anything that gets us disentangled from OPEC countries, whether they be in the Middle East or South America.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #6  
BillyP said:
Bio fuel is just another way to rape the taxpayer.

Just my opinion.


How so?
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #7  
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #8  
Interesting reading, but who do you think is going to pay for a hydrogen infastructure? If you think Ethanol has heavy subsidies, just wait for hydrogen...

There is a reason that the only real application of Hydrogen has been the space program. It takes a tremendous ammount of money to apply it and only a large government can afford to foot the bill. I am way more optimistic about bio than hydrogen.

It is going to cost us one way or another. I don't really consider Ethanol a viable bio-fuel due to it's low BTU density and the large ammount of energy required to create it(in those regards it is a lot like hydrogen). The only place I think it will work is where you have a large surplus of another energy such as Brazil who has an abundance of electrical power to fuel the converson process. Hence the need for heavy subsidies to even keep some companies producing it in this country.

A far more viable biofuel in my opinion is biodiesel. It is easy to produce with a good energy density. The crops with the highest yield for oils are food crops(soy, sunflower, rape ect), but not those typically in high demand overseas(corn wheat ect). Now if money is involved, this could cause some corn and wheat producers to shift crops which will reduce supply of those and drive up the price. But what I envision is the adding of additional crops for fuel. Most farms can produce far more than they do. It is not always financially sound for them to do so as it floods the marks and lowers the price. There is also a lot of land that dosn't produce anything for this same reason, as a flooded market is not a profitable one and it is not worth the time/fuel/equipment/water/fertilizer/pesticide to grow on it for the lower market price. They also need to rotate production. A more robust market for oil seed crops would make it more profitable for them to produce more and perhaps even stabilize their income on years when they would normally be forced to rotate in a less profitable crop. If there is a market for it, farmers will grow it.

If I need another vehicle to be compatible with the available fuel source, I would much prefer a less expensive diesel with technology I can work on at home, than a VERY expensive hydrogen vehicle that I won't be able to maintain.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car
  • Thread Starter
#9  
As I said, I think it will take time, but because of all the problems with other things, I think it is inevitable that fusion power coupled to electrolysis for hydrogen will come to fruition. It will have to be market forces that eventually drive that, not taxes and government. If someone had said, "Let's invent the internet and have government/taxes pay for it," it never would have happened. As it was a small, decades old DARPA program suddenly morphed into today's internet when all the other technology and market forces were finally ready for it.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #10  
I don't get the fuel source thing at all.

Asia is all about LNG technologies, including vehicles. The newer storage and distribution centers, retail and wholesale are popping up. Newer vehicle tanks are retrofitted into existing buses, vans, trucks and cars. No loss of space like one reader noted here.

So what gives? I think the USA consumer is being mis-led.

I think it is a public relationship/marketing message... at best.

-Mike Z.
 

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