Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car

   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #11  
I'm not worried, the Pres has this problem well in hand... that's why we elected him...he's an energy expert having been in the oil bid'ness. And, he reiterated, just today, that he has his 20/10 plan to reduce our "addiction to oil". So, I just know we're all going to be green in no time:D
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #12  
LNG is a viable technology and has been on our roadways for decades at an affordable cost. It has reasonable ammounts of energy per gallon in liquid form(80K-90K BTU/Gallon) with gasoline comming in around 115KBTU/Gallon and is viable when you consider the lower production costs to process and liquify it. It is liquid at a reasonable pressure(less than 250PSI) and is relatively easy to keep contained due to it's molecular size. LNG/LPG does add weight to a vehicle with the requirement of a heavy walled pressure tank. Because of the lower energy density, LPG/LNG systems do take up more space in a vehicle for a comparable range. You would have to carry 1.7 times as much LPG on the vehicle so powered, than on a similar diesel vehicle. That is usually why you see fleet vehicles such as busses and company trucks converted to propane as they have the space onboard the vehicle to do it. Most private vehicles that are converted are pickups that sacrifice bed space for the larger fuel tank. The real issue is where does the LNG/LPG come from. It is a byproduct of oil drilling and comes out of the ground with the oil. Some wells produce more gas than oil, but it is not renewable and we will eventually run out.

As compared, hydrogen has about 30K BTU per gallon or about 1/4 the energy of gasoline in liquid form. It is lighter by volume, but once you consider the cryogenic plant required to keep it a liquid, the weight savings is not as great. It also takes about 30% of the energy contained in hydrogen to cool it enough for liquification(-425F) so that is not really viable in your every day veicle yet.

The best current method of hydrogen storage is as a high pressure gas. 1 cubic foot of Hydrogen has the same energy as .002 gallons of diesel. or when burnt it takes 500 CU/FT of hydrogen to = 1 gallon of diesel. The only way to store useable ammounts of energy is under very high pressure(tanks rated for 10,000 + PSI). but this increases the storage difficulties and hazards in an automobile expected to go out and play in traffic. Fuel cells do show promise as seen in the link to the fuel cell hybrid vehicle at the start of this thread, but in my opinion, not nearly as much potential as a biodiesel powered hybrid. But Untill they get fuel cells more viable and cost effective, and resolve the energy volume/storage issues with hydrogen, Oh and find a way to produce it, store it and transport it economically, I feel that hydrogen will continue to be the least bang for the buck.

Just My .02
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #13  
Biodiesel from algae has great promise. See how it is produced here:MIT Energy Research Council : Research Spotlight

I run 20-30% biodiesel from waste vegetable oil in my truck and 100% in my tractor. It works well, but there are pitfalls. I know guys that run 100% in their new diesel trucks, but I'm not willing to subject my injectors to that, even though I'm confident the fuel I'm making is good quality.

One of the benefits of algae is that we aren't diverting commodities that we use elsewhere to produce it.

Now, if someone would just put a diesel in a 1/2 platform truck/suv, I'd be really happy. I've heard that ford has plans for a 4.4 ltr (range rover ?) diesel in a 1/2 ton truck.:)
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #14  
riptides said:
So what gives? I think the USA consumer is being mis-led.
texasjohn said:
I'm not worried, the Pres has this problem well in hand... that's why we elected him...he's an energy expert having been in the oil bid'ness. And, he reiterated, just today, that he has his 20/10 plan to reduce our "addiction to oil".
There are many dozens of alternatives to the gasoline powered automobile, but none will be allowed in this country for many years except for the bio-fuel alternative to the existing engine, because of the invisible "money trail".

Smaller diesels automobiles are popular throughout Europe and Japan and get 60 to 70 miles per gallon, but are unable to pass ever-changing EPA regulations designed to keep them out. Inexpensive small gas-electric hybrids have been proven to work by the Japanese, but the "Big Three" can only squeeze a couple of extra MPG's for an additional several thousand dollars more than their traditional counterparts. And now an emission-free car powered by compressed air is being sold in India and Europe, but of course is too unsafe for the U.S.

As long as the oil companies wish to maintain their 40 billion dollar profits each year, they will ensure the dependance for their product in this country will not be compromised. Unfortunately, the main alternatives (ethanol, etc) that are being funded have the blessing of the oil companies because it will ensure their future profitabilty.
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #15  
When all else fails, a conspiracy theory explains it all.:rolleyes:
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #16  
I know:) We'll all plant energy independence gardens....just like the victory gardens of WW II ....with Switchgrass... as green as it gets:D And, my cows will like it, too, if it doesn't work out:eek:
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #17  
MikePA said:
When all else fails, a conspiracy theory explains it all.:rolleyes:
You're right... the government ONLY looks out for OUR best interest and is only trying to protect us from compressed air. ;)
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car
  • Thread Starter
#18  
RonMar said:
LNG is a viable technology and has been on our roadways for decades at an affordable cost.

NG and LNG are great fuels. They can be completely oxidized into CO2, so no pollution, only greenhouse gas emissions. NG used to be abundant and very cheap. What has happened is that elec. utilities have shunned other fossil fuels (along with nuclear) in favor of NG piped directly into small generating facilities that have one large aircraft turbine burning the NG and blowing its exhaust into another turbine which is geared to a generator. These Co-Gen plants shunt the hot waste gasses off to boilers in attached paper mills or similar industries which pay for the waste heat. My cousin used to manage one of these Co-Gen plants in Modesto. These small facilities can react quickly to surges in demand, going on and off line in minutes. So much NG is now piped directly to these facilities that demand now equals supply and is in the process of exceeding it very soon. This is why CA is in the process of preparing to build new shipping docks/terminals where shiploads of foreign LNG will be unloaded. (More reliance on unstable foreigners and more trade deficit.)

It just seems to me that we whould be making the electricity from some other domestic fuel source (coal with CO2 sequestered, 4th generation nuclear, etc.) and using what was a surplus of NG to pressurize into LNG for autos, thus reducing imports from these unstable OPEC nations.

BTW, 4th generation nuclear is a design in which solid spheres of nuclear material the size of tennis balls are embedded in a ceramic matrix. There are no control rods, and no liquid that becomes contaminated. This matrix is not capable of overheating or melting down. Helium is pumped through this matrix, the gas picking up heat from the decaying isotopes. The Helium passes through a turbine (coupled to generator) where it cools, and then continues the loop. Alternate designs have the Helium passing through a heat exchanger, making steam to drive turbines. The depleted fissile materials, being solid rather than liquid, are more easily stored in deep underground deposits. Yuca Mountain has been ready to receive waste for years, but local politicians from BOTH parties in Nevada have done everything possible to block the facility from opening.

Another side note: Hydro makes a good on demand source. As someone who thinks of himself as an environmentalist and a pragmatist at the same time, I have written letters to politicians and political groups on both sides of environmental issues with the following propasal. Yosemite National Park actually has TWO beautiful canyons. In the early 1900s, the city of San Francisco managed to get the other canyon dammed up. Water is piped from there to San Francisco today. The dam is old and will not be able to stay up forever. There are other newer/larger dams downstream of the Hetch Hechy with enough capacity to replace the water. There is a dam site on the American River where a very large reservoir could be built that would do all the following: 1) provide drinking water for new development in this fast growing region. 2) provide recreation. 3) provide flood protection for Sacramento (Sacramento has greater odds of flood catastrophy than New Orleans. Their number simply came up on the roulette wheel before ours.) Environmentalists have blocked dam construction for nearly 35 years. My suggestion to all the groups and politicians has been a trade. Take down the dam in Hetch Hetchy and begin restoring Hetch Hetchy, while building a much larger reservoir in the American River Canyon at Auburn. Environmentalists would be trading an average valley to get back a jewel in Yosemite. Developers would get water for growth. Sac. would get its flood protection. Water rights trades could be made to insure SF has adequate drinking supply. Thing is, SF, normally so environmental, doesn't want to surrender alpine pure drinking water. I got a form letter from Sen. Feinstein saying that Hetch Hetchy shouldn't be taken down because of the cost. I say, since environmentalists want Hetch Hetchy back so badly, let them do fundraising to take down the dam, and since they get their jewel back, let them agree to giving up the canyon at Auburn. Let developers and elec. utilities pay for a $2 billion dam there in exchange for the power they'd get. Sac. gets flood protection. Then that on demand power could free up some NG for use in cars, lessening our dependance on unstable foreign oil. Well, as one of the few who believes in a middle ground, not many agree with me. Extremists on both sides want every last thing their way. The founders believed the word "compromise" was a good word. Extremists today consider the idea a sin. Why can't anybody see the benefits of being pragmatic and using common sense any more?
 
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   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #19  
Rapidly changing an economy driven so hardly off of one commodity (crude) would be devastating. As uncaring to the projected outlook on our current path, (i.e. global warming, depleting crude supplies, etc.) it sounds, it is true. I am not a big oil company profiting off of the situation so I can say it. Consider what would happen to the little guy who loses his job because the product the big oil company sells loses its demand overnight. Then multiply the little guy by millions = devastating, world economy busting event. (Why do you think the government steps in every 20 years to bail out the automakers?)

I don't think it is necessarily true that the technology doesn't exist or is not near existing, it is the infrastructure to support it that is so far from existing. Who pays for the new infrastructure and who eats the investment in the current.

Not a pretty situation I know, our best bet is to continue along our current path and expect this to happen over time. I am not saying, don't recycle your plastic milk jugs. Maybe, as another poster pointed out, it will follow the path of the internet and proliferate out of shade tree technology.

My two cents.

Regards,
Kevin
 
   / Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car #20  
AndyM said:
You're right... the government ONLY looks out for OUR best interest and is only trying to protect us from compressed air. ;)
I didn't say this nor imply it.

Not believing in crazy conspiracy theories doesn't imply belief in the government looking out for our best interests.
 

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