Honda to Introduce Hydrogen Car
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KAB
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For lack of a better place to put this - Digital50: General Motors Corp. News and more Business News
Kurt
Kurt
nobull1
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Last year while delivering some firewood, I had the chance to talk to the customer and found he was using hydrogen for his vehicle
. After a few minutes of showing me his device he explained that he was testing/installing this system in a variety of vehicles. The idea was for his device to make hydrogen on an as required bases, and inject it into the intake. This way there was no storage tank needed and potential of exploding vehicles(so he said). He claimed to have a patent(not pending) and was having it tested by the Canadian Government. Although this is not a total hydrogen vehicle, it gave a considerable increase in fuel mileage without the dangers normally associated with hydrogen. He claimed the best use was in diesel engines for the highest percentage increase in mileage, long haul tractors especially. I can't remember the exact size of the machine that went into the vehicle, but it wasn't bigger than a suitcase. I really don't know much about this, or even if it worked as he implied. Maybe a few more knowledgeable people will have an opinion on this.
. After a few minutes of showing me his device he explained that he was testing/installing this system in a variety of vehicles. The idea was for his device to make hydrogen on an as required bases, and inject it into the intake. This way there was no storage tank needed and potential of exploding vehicles(so he said). He claimed to have a patent(not pending) and was having it tested by the Canadian Government. Although this is not a total hydrogen vehicle, it gave a considerable increase in fuel mileage without the dangers normally associated with hydrogen. He claimed the best use was in diesel engines for the highest percentage increase in mileage, long haul tractors especially. I can't remember the exact size of the machine that went into the vehicle, but it wasn't bigger than a suitcase. I really don't know much about this, or even if it worked as he implied. Maybe a few more knowledgeable people will have an opinion on this.Toiyabe
Silver Member
nobull1 - This is from New Brunswick, but maybe you ran across someone in this project? Hydrogen Storage: UNBF Researchers Achieve Technology Breakthrough -- March 7, 2007 - News@UNB
RonMar
Elite Member
nobull1 said:Last year while delivering some firewood, I had the chance to talk to the customer and found he was using hydrogen for his vehicle
Well unless they have stumbled across some miracle new way to crack hydrogen out of water, I would hazard a guess that the device in question consumes an enormous ammount of power, far more than it produces. Was he separating the gasses(hydrogen and oxygen) created from the process or was he flowing them both together to burn(dirty gas). Now normally the fuel and oxidizer are kept separate till they are burnt for safety reasons, so I hope they are carefull. How was this thing powered? From a battery in the trunk? From the vehicle electrical system? What is making the electrical power that is going into it? What was he doing with the hazmat(residue of water and the conduction chemical added tothe water to allow the electrolisys to occur)? There is no free lunch! Most people forget that hydrogen, like most other fuels we burn, is not a primary energy source, it is an energy storage/conversion medium. We have to put energy into it to get it into a useable form. It is a very romantic notion, kind of like the guy who hangs a small wind generator out of his window to harness the "free" energy rushing past his vehicle in the form of air as he drives down the road, but the realities of the ENTIRE process are not very favorable. I am all for the guy that comes up with the better mousetrap, but I think there will be very few verifiable examples with some of these schemes. I guess my upbringing has forever condemed me to be a pessimist.
I was reading a point paper a while back that using electrolisys to crack hydrogen for a fuel cell powered vehicle, takes approximatly 140 KilloWatt Hours(KWH) of electricity(from coal) to yield 17.4 KWH output from a fuel cell to a vehicle for propulsion.(70 actual KWH times coal 50% production efficiency) I think that is just over 12% overall efficient(or 24% from say hydro power). Current gasoline hybrids are touting 40% effciency(Toyota) and studies at MIT show the use of diesel tech combined with hybrid can produce greater than 50%. Couple that with a bio fuel that is carbon neutral and we could see a much more viable and green solution than hydrogen.
How much emissions will that coal output to produce that 140 KWH? Some say green power can be used for the hydrogen production. I don't see anyone in this country proposing any large scale hydro projects, in fact we are tearing out dams instead of building them. Oh, and we would need about 15 times the ammount of hydro that we now have to meet the demand for vehicle fuel we had back in 2000. Solar? Well at current production technology and rate, it takes many years to recover the energy used to produce the cells. If we want a hydrogen "powered" society that is also green, we better embrace nuclear energy in a big way. Everything else is just pie in the sky untill the production and storage technology and conversion efficiencies evolve.
Then there is the practical side and our litigous society. It is hard enough to keep gasoline contained at atmospheric pressure, let alone hydrogen at 10,000 PSI as some propose to get a usefull range. What do you think is going to happen when some soccer mom and kiddies runs over one of these high pressure compressed hydrogen cars in her SUV and everyone in both vehicles die or are seriously injured in the fire? My guess would be the same thing that happened to Ford with the Pinto...
nobull1
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Ron
This is way beyond my understanding/memory, but I will tell you what I remember, or think I remember. He said a cup of water would provide enough hydrogen to power about 1000 miles. This was in a container that was installed along side of the assembly that separated the hydrogen. This whole assembly was located in front of the radiator, with a line plumbed into the intake. On his workbech he was using batteries for his test system. As far as separating the gases I really don't know, except I do know that his vent going outside had a cup placed under it for a second or two then made a serious bang when he struck a match. As far as I can remember there was nothing other than the vehicles electical system to run this, and was shut off as soon as the key was turned off. Make any sense to you? Remember it was just a supplement to regular fuel for a percentage increase in mileage. "I think" it was around 20% increase with large diesel engines in mileage.
This is way beyond my understanding/memory, but I will tell you what I remember, or think I remember. He said a cup of water would provide enough hydrogen to power about 1000 miles. This was in a container that was installed along side of the assembly that separated the hydrogen. This whole assembly was located in front of the radiator, with a line plumbed into the intake. On his workbech he was using batteries for his test system. As far as separating the gases I really don't know, except I do know that his vent going outside had a cup placed under it for a second or two then made a serious bang when he struck a match. As far as I can remember there was nothing other than the vehicles electical system to run this, and was shut off as soon as the key was turned off. Make any sense to you? Remember it was just a supplement to regular fuel for a percentage increase in mileage. "I think" it was around 20% increase with large diesel engines in mileage.
the_sandman_454
Silver Member
If it's ran from the vehicle's electrical system, the drag on the engine will increase via the alternator having to produce more power. It doesn't sound like it would be particularly helpful, since it'd take a fair amount of hydrogen to make a difference. The other problem is accounting for the unmetered fuel and oxygen, which could potentially raise combustion temperatures to levels unsafe for the engine.
Hydrogen is approximately 100 times easier to ignite than gasoline, and moreso than diesel. I wonder if what your guy is doing is simply (knowingly or unknowingly) using the hydrogen system to advance the engine's ignition timing... It would seem once the hydrogen/oxygen combination get into the combustion chamber it would light off significantly before the gasoline, which would ignite the gasoline sooner than it would otherwise. If that's the case, you could get the same advantage by simply setting the timing a little more advanced, which can lead to detonation (pinging), which will eventually ruin a gas engine.
Hydrogen is approximately 100 times easier to ignite than gasoline, and moreso than diesel. I wonder if what your guy is doing is simply (knowingly or unknowingly) using the hydrogen system to advance the engine's ignition timing... It would seem once the hydrogen/oxygen combination get into the combustion chamber it would light off significantly before the gasoline, which would ignite the gasoline sooner than it would otherwise. If that's the case, you could get the same advantage by simply setting the timing a little more advanced, which can lead to detonation (pinging), which will eventually ruin a gas engine.
Chuck52
Veteran Member
There are a number of chemical reactions which produce hydrogen gas. The drawback to most of these is the caustic nature of the reactants, or the products, or their cost, or both. There's some ongoing research at Purdue involving an aluminum/galium "catalyst" which reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas. I put "catalyst" in parentheses because the aluminum in the mixture is oxidized and depleted in the process, so it doesn't function as a true catalyst, but supposedly the mixture can be regenerated at some reasonable cost. The energy for this, of course, has to come from somewhere because there ain't no free lunch. However, if we're talking about maintaining our level of mobility, that is worth something, right?
Chuck
Chuck
nobull1, I think somebody is pulling your leg. Electrolysis isn't a simple process, and the hydrogen from 1 cup of water just wouldn't power a vehicle 1k mi.
Ron is absolutely right about the effeciency. The only way that I foresee hydrogen being viable is when fusion powered reactors are able to churn out really cheap electricity perhaps 50 to 100 years from now.
Currently, a big test fusion reactor is being built in France. Many nations, including the US, are participating in the funding and research. Currently all 3 isotopes of hydrogen are involved in the recipe for the thermonuclear fuel (standard hydrogen has 1 proton in the nucleus, Duterium has 1 proton and 1 neutron, Tritium has 1 proton and 2 neutrons-all 3, along with lithium, are also used in the recipe for thermonuclear bombs). The current method of reactor ignition is to zap a little pellet with hundreds of high powered lasers. So far the energy output is less than the input, but there is a threshold where that theoretically reverses. The question is, how much output can be "contained". When a fission trigger is used to set off a fusion bomb, well, we've all seen those clips of Bikini atol being evaporated.
It hasn't been publicized much, but a major reason for going back to the moon is the potential for mining Helium3. This substance has 2 protons and 1 neutron and theoretically would make a better thermonuclear fuel than the Hydrogen isotopes. It is virtually non-existent on earth, but it exists at the south pole of the moon. About a year ago, NASA quietly stated that the new moon program would not seek to explore different parts of the moon. The program will go only to the south pole (where there is also a little water in the form of ice, and where there is always sunlight for photovoltaic power) and a permanant base is to be established there. The thing is, that's where the He3 is located. China has openly said it is going to the moon, and for the clear purpose of mining the He3 at the south pole. We are headed for another moon race, but this time, there is actually something more valuable than gold for the new Cortezes to bring back from the "New World" to the "Old World". And whereas the first moon race helped act as a substitute for war with the Soviet Union, this moon race could easily help drive us to war with our rising nemesis, China.
Ron is absolutely right about the effeciency. The only way that I foresee hydrogen being viable is when fusion powered reactors are able to churn out really cheap electricity perhaps 50 to 100 years from now.
Currently, a big test fusion reactor is being built in France. Many nations, including the US, are participating in the funding and research. Currently all 3 isotopes of hydrogen are involved in the recipe for the thermonuclear fuel (standard hydrogen has 1 proton in the nucleus, Duterium has 1 proton and 1 neutron, Tritium has 1 proton and 2 neutrons-all 3, along with lithium, are also used in the recipe for thermonuclear bombs). The current method of reactor ignition is to zap a little pellet with hundreds of high powered lasers. So far the energy output is less than the input, but there is a threshold where that theoretically reverses. The question is, how much output can be "contained". When a fission trigger is used to set off a fusion bomb, well, we've all seen those clips of Bikini atol being evaporated.
It hasn't been publicized much, but a major reason for going back to the moon is the potential for mining Helium3. This substance has 2 protons and 1 neutron and theoretically would make a better thermonuclear fuel than the Hydrogen isotopes. It is virtually non-existent on earth, but it exists at the south pole of the moon. About a year ago, NASA quietly stated that the new moon program would not seek to explore different parts of the moon. The program will go only to the south pole (where there is also a little water in the form of ice, and where there is always sunlight for photovoltaic power) and a permanant base is to be established there. The thing is, that's where the He3 is located. China has openly said it is going to the moon, and for the clear purpose of mining the He3 at the south pole. We are headed for another moon race, but this time, there is actually something more valuable than gold for the new Cortezes to bring back from the "New World" to the "Old World". And whereas the first moon race helped act as a substitute for war with the Soviet Union, this moon race could easily help drive us to war with our rising nemesis, China.
nobull1
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Tom
You could be right this might not work and buddy is full of it. I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, or care to do the research, to get up to speed, but I did see it set up on a vehicle as well as see the working setup on his workbench. I should have paid more attention to the details, but hindsight is always 20/20. Remember though, the hydrogen in the cup of water was a supplement to the normal fuel not a replacement. Any idea how much potential hydrogen is in a cup of water as a fuel source? I also believe his claim was a lot cleaner motor oil for a longer period of time. If he orders firewood this Summer, I will be on the ball and ask the right questions, then post a reply here.
You could be right this might not work and buddy is full of it. I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, or care to do the research, to get up to speed, but I did see it set up on a vehicle as well as see the working setup on his workbench. I should have paid more attention to the details, but hindsight is always 20/20. Remember though, the hydrogen in the cup of water was a supplement to the normal fuel not a replacement. Any idea how much potential hydrogen is in a cup of water as a fuel source? I also believe his claim was a lot cleaner motor oil for a longer period of time. If he orders firewood this Summer, I will be on the ball and ask the right questions, then post a reply here.