MDNY
Platinum Member
Rob & others, one last thing. There is a hybrid cable out there that is: speaker wire, CAT5 (or higher now), Cable TV, Fiber Optic and Alarm wire all in one. Makes it cheaper and easier.
House
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StoneHeartFarm
Veteran Member
<font color=blue> there is a hybrid cable out there</font color=blue>
Wish I'd known that a year ago. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
SHF
Wish I'd known that a year ago. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
SHF
MDNY
Platinum Member
Sorry about that. A co-worker of mine was telling me about it two years ago when he was building. My builder is not familiar with the IEEE standards for home networking so I will have to get him some info on wiriing or just have him run the wire and leave it alone so I can have it punched down.
OP
RobS
Super Member
We're still waiting for the final numbers as well, but we've been through everything so many times we agreed to proceed.
I just read that running data and phone in the same Cat5 bundle can lead to data corruption due to high ringer voltages. Any truth to that? At this point we're planning on home-running each location with seperate data, phone and video cables. The cables are relatively inexpensive (compared to the cost of un-sticking a concrete mixer /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif ).
I'd have to agree with you, if we were getting those kind of answers out of our builder we may be looking elsewhere as well. Good luck and keep us posted /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I just read that running data and phone in the same Cat5 bundle can lead to data corruption due to high ringer voltages. Any truth to that? At this point we're planning on home-running each location with seperate data, phone and video cables. The cables are relatively inexpensive (compared to the cost of un-sticking a concrete mixer /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif ).
I'd have to agree with you, if we were getting those kind of answers out of our builder we may be looking elsewhere as well. Good luck and keep us posted /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
markcg2000
Gold Member
It's possible the ringer might annoy your data, but not likely with CAT5. Besides, it's only a couple of rings and the data will retransmit if it gets corrupted.
kyoders
Silver Member
Rob,
All Ethernet running on twisted pair uses differential signalling. The tight twist of the pairs just about guarantees that any voltage induced on one line of the pair will also be induced on the other, making the difference between the lines within a pair stay pretty consistent. What is more likely is that the ring voltage could be fully induced onto a data pair, and some hubs might object to that (i.e. they may fry. I've seen it happen, although there was no way to know what induced the voltage on it). That being said, I would still not do it.
The problem is at the termination point. How do you break out pair 1 (for voice) from pair 2&3 (data)? There used to be some companies making adapters for this, but it was dubious whether they actually met cat 5 standards or not. And they weren't cheap. If you attempt to do this yourself, you are guaranteed to violate cat 5. Does that mean it won't work? Not necessarily, but you never know. Where I used to work, we had all kinds of bizzare things work fine, and some that were done to the letter that wouldn't (we had one run of cat 5 that had some kind of junk being induced on it, and it wouldn't work with our hubs). Even if it works, without using the pre-fab adapters, you end up with a mess at your outlet.
Stick with your original plan and run separate voice and data lines to each location. In fact, the last time I looked, the 568 standard called for two data and one voice to each location. Given how cheap the stuff has gotten over the years, why not do it? The 10 years that 568 was supposed to allow for are rapidly disappearing. And definitely do home runs, and terminate at a 110 block or cat 5 patch panel. This makes it incredibly easy to route just about anything to just about anywhere.
Kevin
All Ethernet running on twisted pair uses differential signalling. The tight twist of the pairs just about guarantees that any voltage induced on one line of the pair will also be induced on the other, making the difference between the lines within a pair stay pretty consistent. What is more likely is that the ring voltage could be fully induced onto a data pair, and some hubs might object to that (i.e. they may fry. I've seen it happen, although there was no way to know what induced the voltage on it). That being said, I would still not do it.
The problem is at the termination point. How do you break out pair 1 (for voice) from pair 2&3 (data)? There used to be some companies making adapters for this, but it was dubious whether they actually met cat 5 standards or not. And they weren't cheap. If you attempt to do this yourself, you are guaranteed to violate cat 5. Does that mean it won't work? Not necessarily, but you never know. Where I used to work, we had all kinds of bizzare things work fine, and some that were done to the letter that wouldn't (we had one run of cat 5 that had some kind of junk being induced on it, and it wouldn't work with our hubs). Even if it works, without using the pre-fab adapters, you end up with a mess at your outlet.
Stick with your original plan and run separate voice and data lines to each location. In fact, the last time I looked, the 568 standard called for two data and one voice to each location. Given how cheap the stuff has gotten over the years, why not do it? The 10 years that 568 was supposed to allow for are rapidly disappearing. And definitely do home runs, and terminate at a 110 block or cat 5 patch panel. This makes it incredibly easy to route just about anything to just about anywhere.
Kevin
markcg2000
Gold Member
That's true. I was thinking of my house (>100 y/o); tough to get wires through those huge post&beams, then the plaster /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif. If it were all open, I would definately run 2-each 4-pair CAT5 and video to each jack.
MDNY
Platinum Member
Rob,
Thanks for the support, I am giving them just a little more time, before I drop it and find a new builder. The wife and my's biggest fear is this is how we get treated during the process. Meaning no return calls, who is the POC on the project etc. They seemed very interested in the begining, but have dropped the ball. I am in sales and if I did my proposals like they do I would be buying a card board box to live in. At any rate I gave them an Excel file breaking out the upgrades and how I need the info done, still nothing yet.
Kyoders,
I do agree with you that running individual home runs is best especially since the CAT5 PVC is about $50 per 1000' (depending the supplier). I may just op to have them run individual lines, supply the boxes and jacks for them to install so I can get the (1) Data, (1) Voice, (1) Video, with a possible second video run but not attached. I can coordinate it in the basement with a patch panel to house it all in a modular form. Being in the IT business I can get it at cost and help the builder do it correcty (read: hire one of my techs to do it). I tell my customers, I can design you LAN (and WAN) but I do not configure for a reason. I'm not an engineer, just a techical Sales Rep who has attention to detail.
With CAT5E pushing out and CAT6 moving in and FO Cable being so cheap I may run some of that too, just not sure yet.
Thanks for the support, I am giving them just a little more time, before I drop it and find a new builder. The wife and my's biggest fear is this is how we get treated during the process. Meaning no return calls, who is the POC on the project etc. They seemed very interested in the begining, but have dropped the ball. I am in sales and if I did my proposals like they do I would be buying a card board box to live in. At any rate I gave them an Excel file breaking out the upgrades and how I need the info done, still nothing yet.
Kyoders,
I do agree with you that running individual home runs is best especially since the CAT5 PVC is about $50 per 1000' (depending the supplier). I may just op to have them run individual lines, supply the boxes and jacks for them to install so I can get the (1) Data, (1) Voice, (1) Video, with a possible second video run but not attached. I can coordinate it in the basement with a patch panel to house it all in a modular form. Being in the IT business I can get it at cost and help the builder do it correcty (read: hire one of my techs to do it). I tell my customers, I can design you LAN (and WAN) but I do not configure for a reason. I'm not an engineer, just a techical Sales Rep who has attention to detail.
With CAT5E pushing out and CAT6 moving in and FO Cable being so cheap I may run some of that too, just not sure yet.
- Joined
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- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
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Rob, I'd recommend running seperate voice and data. And punch down all 8 wires at each end. It might seem like a waste of 6 wires if you use it for a phone location, however, as stated by others, the wire is so inexpensive that it doesn't matter.
Beautiful weekend, eh?
Beautiful weekend, eh?
dmccarty
Super Star Member
MDNY,
Sounds like time to find a new builder.... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif
I have been looking off and on for a builder for 10 years. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I think we finally found one. And then it was by dumb luck. We met
with him yesterday for the sixth time. He has given us some rough
questimates on what it would cost to do two floor plans, actually its
one house done in two phases. We and the builder have spent at
least 16 hours talking about things during the six meetings. I'm
sure he has spent at least a couple more hours looking at our
sketches and figuring out the prices. His prices are coming in
about where I would expect for what he is pricing.
I figure I'm going to be "married" to the builder for a year. I had better
get along with the builder otherwise its going to be hell down the road.
And then I'm left with what the builder did. If I'm not happy with the
builder up front its only going to get worse. I've met some builders, who
close friends worked with, that I would not let build a dog house. And I
have met a couple that seem real good and have built good houses. I
know one builder that just did some real good work on a friends house.
The quality is top notch. But I won't use him since he said a few things
to me in passing that I did not like. What he said might be incosequential
to some but he lost a commission and does not know why.
I hope my builder is as good as I think he is! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Time will tell....
My Rambling Two Cents! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Dan
Sounds like time to find a new builder.... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif
I have been looking off and on for a builder for 10 years. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I think we finally found one. And then it was by dumb luck. We met
with him yesterday for the sixth time. He has given us some rough
questimates on what it would cost to do two floor plans, actually its
one house done in two phases. We and the builder have spent at
least 16 hours talking about things during the six meetings. I'm
sure he has spent at least a couple more hours looking at our
sketches and figuring out the prices. His prices are coming in
about where I would expect for what he is pricing.
I figure I'm going to be "married" to the builder for a year. I had better
get along with the builder otherwise its going to be hell down the road.
And then I'm left with what the builder did. If I'm not happy with the
builder up front its only going to get worse. I've met some builders, who
close friends worked with, that I would not let build a dog house. And I
have met a couple that seem real good and have built good houses. I
know one builder that just did some real good work on a friends house.
The quality is top notch. But I won't use him since he said a few things
to me in passing that I did not like. What he said might be incosequential
to some but he lost a commission and does not know why.
I hope my builder is as good as I think he is! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Time will tell....
My Rambling Two Cents! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Dan
--
I figure I'm going to be "married" to the builder for a year.
--
I found the above line very funny considering that my wife and I are self-contracting our house project. Since she is not working right now, she has been spending full time getting all the bids and estimates from all the sub-contractors. I literally AM married to my builder.
- Rick
I figure I'm going to be "married" to the builder for a year.
--
I found the above line very funny considering that my wife and I are self-contracting our house project. Since she is not working right now, she has been spending full time getting all the bids and estimates from all the sub-contractors. I literally AM married to my builder.
- Rick
PaulT
Gold Member
We expanded our house about 2 years ago. We gutted the entire house and doubled the footage. I planned and installed all of the voice/data/video wiring myself, since I have installed many networks over the years. I would avoid the bundled wire, unless you plan to install fiber, since the other wires are cheaper individually than the bundles are. They sell wire this way because it is less labor to pull one wire than 4 wires, so the wire itself is actually more expensive!! No advantage here if you're doing it yourself (and there is no reason why you can't)
Do use home runs (individual wires from evey point to your central distribution panel) for EVERYTHING!
Do use good CAT5 wire like Belden. Good quality wire has better transmission characteristics that allow it to exceed the bandwidth of the stated spec, especially in a house, where only (relatively) short distances are involved.
For 10 mbit ethernet (the speed coming out of a cable modem these days), only 2 pairs are required, but DO terminate every wire, in case you need to use a different one because one is broken during construction (errant nail, etc)
For future data speed (100mbit/gigabit), you should still acceptable performance with this wire, but you will never need this performance for data, since the bottleneck is the cable modem. The next major jump in performance will likely be wireless based, so the wire issues become obsolete.
Do run 2 CAT5 wires (one for voice one for data). In a pinch, you can split the 10mbit ethernet into 2 fi you have to. If you know ahead, better to run an extra one to selected locations.
Do NOT run data and voice on the same cable - just because it is cheap to run two wires, and you will find it to be much easier to work with separate cables at each end.
Run coax to each multimedia location. Two if you plan to have any video generating devices located there (DVD, HDTV decoder, VCR, cable box). If you have two cables, you can run the signal back to your panel, and use some cool video technology to distribute it to any TV in the house, while controlling it from that remote location. It isn't high-def, but it is basic cable quality without having to buy new players for each location.
Buy a cheap box with conduit holes pre-punched. You don't have to buy the structured wiring boxes, they are too expensive.
Do get a good 110 punch down tool that cuts the wires as it punches them down. Use a 110 punch down block to terminate the PHONE wires (not the data wires). Leave some slack in these wires in case you ever need to convert them to data (you will need to cut off the end and re-terminate them according to CAT5 specs)
Do get a modular CAT5 termination block and CAT5 RJ45 female sockets that snap in for all data cable runs.
Do use a basic video signal splitter(s) with a ground. Get an amplified one if you have too many runs and you lose signal quality. Or upgrade to a powered IR controlled video distribution system if you want to route different video sources through the house with switching capability at each TV.
Order all of your wires from the electrical supply company that your contractor's electrician uses, and get it on his account to get his discount. Do not buy from (B)LOWES or HOME DEPOT or you will pay 2x. (But feel free to window shop to get some idea of how the stuff works together).
Don't forget the speaker wires!
Check out the following web sites for more info
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://bwcecom.belden.com/>Belden cable</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/>Leviton voice and data</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.leviton.com/lin/index.html>Leviton Integrated Media</A>
Do use home runs (individual wires from evey point to your central distribution panel) for EVERYTHING!
Do use good CAT5 wire like Belden. Good quality wire has better transmission characteristics that allow it to exceed the bandwidth of the stated spec, especially in a house, where only (relatively) short distances are involved.
For 10 mbit ethernet (the speed coming out of a cable modem these days), only 2 pairs are required, but DO terminate every wire, in case you need to use a different one because one is broken during construction (errant nail, etc)
For future data speed (100mbit/gigabit), you should still acceptable performance with this wire, but you will never need this performance for data, since the bottleneck is the cable modem. The next major jump in performance will likely be wireless based, so the wire issues become obsolete.
Do run 2 CAT5 wires (one for voice one for data). In a pinch, you can split the 10mbit ethernet into 2 fi you have to. If you know ahead, better to run an extra one to selected locations.
Do NOT run data and voice on the same cable - just because it is cheap to run two wires, and you will find it to be much easier to work with separate cables at each end.
Run coax to each multimedia location. Two if you plan to have any video generating devices located there (DVD, HDTV decoder, VCR, cable box). If you have two cables, you can run the signal back to your panel, and use some cool video technology to distribute it to any TV in the house, while controlling it from that remote location. It isn't high-def, but it is basic cable quality without having to buy new players for each location.
Buy a cheap box with conduit holes pre-punched. You don't have to buy the structured wiring boxes, they are too expensive.
Do get a good 110 punch down tool that cuts the wires as it punches them down. Use a 110 punch down block to terminate the PHONE wires (not the data wires). Leave some slack in these wires in case you ever need to convert them to data (you will need to cut off the end and re-terminate them according to CAT5 specs)
Do get a modular CAT5 termination block and CAT5 RJ45 female sockets that snap in for all data cable runs.
Do use a basic video signal splitter(s) with a ground. Get an amplified one if you have too many runs and you lose signal quality. Or upgrade to a powered IR controlled video distribution system if you want to route different video sources through the house with switching capability at each TV.
Order all of your wires from the electrical supply company that your contractor's electrician uses, and get it on his account to get his discount. Do not buy from (B)LOWES or HOME DEPOT or you will pay 2x. (But feel free to window shop to get some idea of how the stuff works together).
Don't forget the speaker wires!
Check out the following web sites for more info
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://bwcecom.belden.com/>Belden cable</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.levitonvoicedata.com/>Leviton voice and data</A>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.leviton.com/lin/index.html>Leviton Integrated Media</A>
OP
RobS
Super Member
Paul, sounds like the voice of experience talking. Thanks for the tips. I'll likely check back with you as we get closer to the wiring phase /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 66,099
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
I agree with just about everything that you said. With that said:
Although the cable modem is only 10M, why limit yourself to that speed inside your house? Most folks that have more than one computer in their house can take advantage of the higher network speed when copying files between computers for backups, filesharing or the ever popular gaming. 10/100 switches are now very inexpensive.
Also, I would home run cat5 cable from every phone and data location back to one patch bay. I'd run my phone service to a second patch bay, then use cat 5 patch cables to connect phone locations to phone lines and data locations to the 10/100 switch. That way, you could use data or phone on any jack in the house just by switching patch cables.
I have also read that to achive gigabit performance over cat5 cabling, some manufacturers are using all 4 pairs. Have you read anything about this?
Although the cable modem is only 10M, why limit yourself to that speed inside your house? Most folks that have more than one computer in their house can take advantage of the higher network speed when copying files between computers for backups, filesharing or the ever popular gaming. 10/100 switches are now very inexpensive.
Also, I would home run cat5 cable from every phone and data location back to one patch bay. I'd run my phone service to a second patch bay, then use cat 5 patch cables to connect phone locations to phone lines and data locations to the 10/100 switch. That way, you could use data or phone on any jack in the house just by switching patch cables.
I have also read that to achive gigabit performance over cat5 cabling, some manufacturers are using all 4 pairs. Have you read anything about this?
Golfgar4
Elite Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 4,342
- Location
- Janesville, Wisconsin
- Tractor
- None -yet. Until then FunBuggy (EZ-Go) will have to do!
Nice digs, Rob. Did I get that you and your wife designed that house? Very impressive. When do you lay the corner stone? Have you ever built a house before? It can be really fun /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif! Only kidding. Just like buying a tractor, if you plan properly, it really CAN be fun. We've built 2, and my wife designs homes, so I always end up getting involved in her clients homes /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif. Anyway, good luck. And if you ever need any advice, give me a shout!
PaulT
Gold Member
MossRoad,
Regarding gigbit e-net, you are correct, it requres all four pairs to be working at appropriate NEXT and SNR levels. For anything slower (10/100 mbit enet), ordinary CAT5 that has been terminated with reasonable (not necessarily perfect) care should work fine.
I agree that you don't have to limit yourself to 10 mbit in the home, but CAT5 works fine for that. My thought was not to invest in anything "better" than CAT5, since the next high speed advancement will likely be wireless, and probably will also have the bandwidth to carry HD video.
As for home runs of data and phone to CAT5 patch panels, you could do it that way, but it won't be quite as convenient as you make it out. After you switch the patch cable, you will have to take apart the wall outlet and convert the RJ11 jack (phone) to RJ45 (data). Since I am not willing to do this, I dedicated my lines either to voice or data, and they stay that way. Terminating the CAT5 is tedious work requiring patience, small fingers and good eyesight. I prefer to terminate as few of them as I can. In contrast, punching down wire pairs on a 110 block is extremely quick, once you get the hang of it. Also, since each termination jack is about 3 bucks, and 110 punchdown blocks are very inexpensive, (or free, if you know where to look/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) I saved some money.
Regarding gigbit e-net, you are correct, it requres all four pairs to be working at appropriate NEXT and SNR levels. For anything slower (10/100 mbit enet), ordinary CAT5 that has been terminated with reasonable (not necessarily perfect) care should work fine.
I agree that you don't have to limit yourself to 10 mbit in the home, but CAT5 works fine for that. My thought was not to invest in anything "better" than CAT5, since the next high speed advancement will likely be wireless, and probably will also have the bandwidth to carry HD video.
As for home runs of data and phone to CAT5 patch panels, you could do it that way, but it won't be quite as convenient as you make it out. After you switch the patch cable, you will have to take apart the wall outlet and convert the RJ11 jack (phone) to RJ45 (data). Since I am not willing to do this, I dedicated my lines either to voice or data, and they stay that way. Terminating the CAT5 is tedious work requiring patience, small fingers and good eyesight. I prefer to terminate as few of them as I can. In contrast, punching down wire pairs on a 110 block is extremely quick, once you get the hang of it. Also, since each termination jack is about 3 bucks, and 110 punchdown blocks are very inexpensive, (or free, if you know where to look/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) I saved some money.
TerryinMD
Veteran Member
MossRoad/PaulT,
I would add something to this. As long as your pulling the cable prior to applying drywall, I suggest that you double the amount of cabling. Instead of two home runs, I'd install four. Why - spares and added capability in the future. Sounds silly, but who can predict what the future may hold (that's even in the next 18-24 months).
If you can afford it, I would install conduit to pull cables. Two reasons - one easy to install new stuff. Two - protect the existing cables. As a plus, you may want to consider adding some fiber optic cable. Some existing stereo components support this and it would be an easy way to connect other rooms in the house.
And as far as the installation, I would shop around for someone to do the voice and data installation. Some electricians understand voice and data, but most are just what they are - electricians. When my addition was wired and cabled. The electrician spliced all of the phone lines in a daisy chain when finishing my second floor. Silly me thought that he would do home runs and have separate cables for each outlet. Hah!! /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
Terry
I would add something to this. As long as your pulling the cable prior to applying drywall, I suggest that you double the amount of cabling. Instead of two home runs, I'd install four. Why - spares and added capability in the future. Sounds silly, but who can predict what the future may hold (that's even in the next 18-24 months).
If you can afford it, I would install conduit to pull cables. Two reasons - one easy to install new stuff. Two - protect the existing cables. As a plus, you may want to consider adding some fiber optic cable. Some existing stereo components support this and it would be an easy way to connect other rooms in the house.
And as far as the installation, I would shop around for someone to do the voice and data installation. Some electricians understand voice and data, but most are just what they are - electricians. When my addition was wired and cabled. The electrician spliced all of the phone lines in a daisy chain when finishing my second floor. Silly me thought that he would do home runs and have separate cables for each outlet. Hah!! /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
Terry
kyoders
Silver Member
Paul,
Phone-type RJ jacks (rj11, rj12, rj13, etc) can be used in RJ45 outlets. No need to re-wire outlet because you change applications. Also, using 568A or 568B wiring, you have the inner two pairs (3&6, 4&5) just the same as 2 pair phone. Of course, changing out the outlet makes it easier to keep somebody from plugging a phone into your 100MB switch, and vice versa.
Kevin
Phone-type RJ jacks (rj11, rj12, rj13, etc) can be used in RJ45 outlets. No need to re-wire outlet because you change applications. Also, using 568A or 568B wiring, you have the inner two pairs (3&6, 4&5) just the same as 2 pair phone. Of course, changing out the outlet makes it easier to keep somebody from plugging a phone into your 100MB switch, and vice versa.
Kevin
kcbarnes
Gold Member
Hey rob, I would also do what TerryinMD suggested with the conduit for your data/voice/video boxes. run a 3/4 or 1" ENT raceway from the box to the attic or basement, you will be glad you did in 10-15 years.
ewoss3
Gold Member
MossRoad, as Terry suggested do install your 3/4" or 1" conduits, once your framers get complete just use a 1" hole saw or forestner bit and run either EMT or blue plastic conduit. Once you have your conduit pulled tie a string on to a small ballon or sandwhich bag and use a shopvac to pull the string thru. Also when you pull your wire make sure and pull an extra string thru with the wire, this allows you to pull future data cabling or fiber quickly and easily. this will allow you to not have to pull extra cables that you might have to update later.
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