How do you hook your Log tongs to draw bar?

[Chilly807]

With any luck this thread will get locked down soon, it's really going to the dogs.. er tongs I mean...

Chilly

 

[SPYDERLK]

With any luck this thread will get locked down soon, it's really going to the dogs
Chilly

By all means. ... The constructive response to any disagreement.
larry

 

[Famah]

Runaway thread! Runaway thread! Runaway thread!

 

[Baby Grand]

Runaway thread! Runaway thread! Runaway thread!

That sounds dangerous!

 

[20 20]

The morons are the ones do don't learn from history. Do you seriously believe machinery and equipment was safer in the 1930's before OSHA?

the equipment maybe safer, the problem is that the operators aren't !

Common sense is uncommon.

bingo you get a cookie :licking:

Equipment and machinery operators get tired, bored and make mistakes. I don't see why equipment cannot be designed with that in mind given it is a near univeral human experience.

So what you are saying is that a tired operator should still be operating ? hmmmmmm

Rabid anti government types need to step back and appreciate that there is a positive role for research, regulations and enforcement even if those things are expensive, painful and sometimes really annoying. If OSHA isn't working for you then suggest positive fixes rather than whining about how great it used to be before they inflicted ROPS on us.

I LOVE TAXES :confused2: :drool: I also think we need atleast another gazillion laws on the books. Next I say we tell folks were and how to live, after that I say get rid of the older generation{maybe 40 and up}.
When I complain I'm trying to say what is wrong I'm not just whinning. I had a CDL, put many miles on a rig. I have seen complete dipwads get behind the wheel of a rig just because the "companies" didn't want to pay for experience. So let me ask when a company can pay to bypass the law is the law any good?????

 

[20 20]

. Please don't get to carried away with giving OSHA credit. Mostly they are just a bunch of beaurocrats that wouldn't have a job if they weren't on the government gravy train
cj

:thumbsup: I worked for a company that had a boat load of serious safety issue's. When OSHA showed up the wallet came out {$$$$$$payed} and nothing was done. I could say the owner of the company payed but, in the end the consummer and tax payer are the ones that flip the bill.

 

[Famah]

That sounds dangerous!

It is!

 

[Richard]

after that I say get rid of the older generation{maybe 40 and up}

Says the 39 year old...

I have probably done some dumb things and probably done some moderately intelligent things. When involved in doing something dumb I usually have a bad feeling in the back of my head and try to be on the alert for as many 'gotchas' as I might be able to foresee.

Ultimately it's about risk management and making an educated game plan for the task/problem at hand.

Just last weekend, I was shown a dead oak tree that is leaning towards the gravel drive (far away from anyones home)

It is a LARGE and very tall oak tree and it's also in the woods. There is no way this tree is going to come down without causing other casualties (tree) during the process. Now we're debating do we wait and allow the tree to fall on its own, however unpredictable (anyone care to drive through the fall zone twice a day?) or do we take it down so we can focuse our attention to the moment it falls?

Fortunately, I have an industrial backhoe so I might be able to clean something out or after it falls, help muscle it around. Unfortunately, this tree is up a sharp bank and there is no real way to get my machine up there so it's essentially useless.

Fortunately (part II ) my brother in law has a bulldozer. It could make it up the embankment but I don't think it can get through the woods to get to this tree without having to run over other trees.

Upper branches have already started to fall, noticed one with a diamater of maybe 8-10 inches laying on the ground (in the woods)

You can't eliminate risk in life so what I try to do is (hopefully) manage it and fear what can happen to me if I fail (thereby causing me to perhaps keep a sharper eye on it?)

 

[beppington]

View attachment log pulling.bmp

 

[Gordon Gould]

View attachment 173569

At least we are back to the main topic now:confused2:

 

[20 20]

Says the 39 year old...

NOPE past the age of 40 {} and sick and tired of big brother being up my #$%, that's why my post had sarcasm. My whole point is that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions, if something happens it MUST be someone/something elses fault.

I have probably done some dumb things and probably done some moderately intelligent things. When involved in doing something dumb I usually have a bad feeling in the back of my head and try to be on the alert for as many 'gotchas' as I might be able to foresee.

completely agree, sometimes things are done that are not the safest thing for a human. Some of us have $$$$$$ to pay while others have to find other means. There are thousands of ways to move a log, some safer then others, but no matter what the operator still needs to have a lick of sense.

Ultimately it's about risk management and making an educated game plan for the task/problem at hand.

:thumbsup: This is why I say no matter how much safety equipment is involved, in the end the operator is the one doing the deed. If the operator relys on safety devices to keep them alive......, well I quess we'll be seeing them on the other side.

Just last weekend, I was shown a dead oak tree that is leaning towards the gravel drive (far away from anyones home)

It is a LARGE and very tall oak tree and it's also in the woods. There is no way this tree is going to come down without causing other casualties (tree) during the process. Now we're debating do we wait and allow the tree to fall on its own, however unpredictable (anyone care to drive through the fall zone twice a day?) or do we take it down so we can focuse our attention to the moment it falls?

Fortunately, I have an industrial backhoe so I might be able to clean something out or after it falls, help muscle it around. Unfortunately, this tree is up a sharp bank and there is no real way to get my machine up there so it's essentially useless.

Fortunately (part II ) my brother in law has a bulldozer. It could make it up the embankment but I don't think it can get through the woods to get to this tree without having to run over other trees.

Upper branches have already started to fall, noticed one with a diamater of maybe 8-10 inches laying on the ground (in the woods)

You can't eliminate risk in life so what I try to do is (hopefully) manage it and fear what can happen to me if I fail (thereby causing me to perhaps keep a sharper eye on it?)

If this tree is where it may fall on someone then I would say....TIMBER..... I have delt with many trees, leaners, they are not much fun but once down I have a sigh of relief. How many folks walk around looking up? Do you think someone would look up or around if they heard something in the woods?

 

[IslandTractor]

Quote from Richard: Ultimately it's about risk management and making an educated game plan for the task/problem at hand.


:thumbsup: This is why I say no matter how much safety equipment is involved, in the end the operator is the one doing the deed. If the operator relys on safety devices to keep them alive......, well I quess we'll be seeing them on the other side.

There is a misconception here. Risk management is not just about operator training and performance. A major emphasis of that field is to look for ways to remove operator error as a risk. Doesn't matter how well trained and skilled a pilot is, the risk management process will try to eliminate pilot error though use of "non judgment dependent" devices or systems such as electronic warnings (pull up pull up) or simple check lists.

To come back to the original question here (tong attachment position), no well thought out risk management plan would ever suggest putting the attachment point above the axle. That adds risk and therefore would be rejected. Granted, a good risk management plan might require that you purchase safety equipment to do the job (logging winch etc) or that technique be changed (tow backwards with FEL near the ground or use an old car hood as a skidding device etc), but it would never involve a plan that amounted to telling the operator to "just be careful while towing from the 3PT hitch".

Human judgment is fallable and good safety plans avoid reliance on it. Better to rely on systems that put physics on your side (drawbar, logging winch) rather than against you (3pt).

 

[Wacky]

Any pics on how to actually hook the tongs to the draw bar?

 

[Chilly807]

The funny part of all this is that the logging winch actually pulls from the 3 ph, there is no attachment to the drawbar, nada, none... once you raise the winch off the ground, you're pulling from the 3ph.

So it would seem that any manufacturer of a modern logging winch is putting it's customers at risk whether they realize it or not.

Lucky for us we know better and are able to find innovative ways to eliminate that risk.

Sean

 

[CJBOTA]

Let's go a different direction. When I bought my new Kubota L3700 w/ fel and bh, it must of had 100 stickers pasted all over it. The first thing I did was remove them all so the beautiful orange paint could shine thru.
Don't do this, don't do that, may cause death, may cause injury, may cause roids, yak, yak yak. For cry'in out loud does anybody actually read those things. No, the manufacturers are just trying to cover their butts when somebody does something stupid. They ought to give you a discount if you take a tractor without the stickers. Some are real fancy, for the guys who like that stuff, let them pay an extra $100.
Just think, the way things are going some day they will come and get you and lock you up for removing your stickers. I hope I am dead by then. Sometimes I don't know how I have managed ro live this long because I really never have liked things like warning stickers. I must have had a bad childhood.
cj

 

[CJBOTA]

Although, I can think of one sticker I really liked. I bought a new Corvette in 1996. On the inside door panel it actually had a sticker that said " at speeds over 155 MPH you must have atleast 55 PSI of air in the tires"
Yep, you guessed it, I left that one on. The safety guy must have been drinking when he told them to put that one on. I guess that would qualify as an engineered solution. And no, I never took it to 155 mph, the dang think shook so bad at 135 MPH it scared me. Also, at the time I wasn't positive I had 55 PSI in the tires.
cj

 

[Baby Grand]

The funny part of all this is that the logging winch actually pulls from the 3 ph, there is no attachment to the drawbar, nada, none... once you raise the winch off the ground, you're pulling from the 3ph.

So it would seem that any manufacturer of a modern logging winch is putting it's customers at risk whether they realize it or not.

Lucky for us we know better and are able to find innovative ways to eliminate that risk.

Sean

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from.
There are safe and not so safe ways to pull with the 3pt hitch.
When the applied load is high on the hitch, the top link is loaded in tension and applies a torque to the frame that tends to lift the front end.

When the applied load is low on the hitch, the bottom links are loaded in tension and apply a torque to the frame that tends to push the front end into the soil.

Most logging winches have a slotted rack that's mounted low on the back for attaching the choke chains so the applied load durring skidding is low on the hitch. This greatly reduces the tendency of the front to lift. This was what (as someone already pointed out) is exactly how the 3pt hitch was intended to be used. Of course, there's always someone who will find a way to make this arrangement dangerous, either through bullheadedness or pure stupidity.

When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp.

There's no safe way to skid logs - it's just a dangerous activity. You have to be responsible for what gets done. You have to think about what you're doing the whole time you are doing it. You have to question every assumption and have a plan for when things still go bad.

-Jim

 

[Chilly807]

I think this is where a lot of the confusion comes from.
There are safe and not so safe ways to pull with the 3pt hitch.
When the applied load is high on the hitch, the top link is loaded in tension and applies a torque to the frame that tends to lift the front end.

When the applied load is low on the hitch, the bottom links are loaded in tension and apply a torque to the frame that tends to push the front end into the soil.

Most logging winches have a slotted rack that's mounted low on the back for attaching the choke chains so the applied load durring skidding is low on the hitch. This greatly reduces the tendency of the front to lift. This was what (as someone already pointed out) is exactly how the 3pt hitch was intended to be used. Of course, there's always someone who will find a way to make this arrangement dangerous, either through bullheadedness or pure stupidity.

There's no safe way to skid logs - it's just a dangerous activity. You have to be responsible for what gets done. You have to think about what you're doing the whole time you are doing it. You have to question every assumption and have a plan for when things still go bad.

-Jim

Really good post Jim, it puts the spotlight on the elephant in the room. Logging IS dangerous, it's why they have sort-of-reality shows on TV illustrating how dangerous it can be. I've never seen a TV show dedicated to plowing fields or bush hogging.

Part of the issue is that we have two forces at work in this situation. The force required to lift the logs ALWAYS wants to pivot the tractor around the rear axle, there's no way to avoid that. If the tractor lifts the front wheels clear of the ground as soon as you lift the logs, either the 3ph has too much hydraulic pressure, or the front needs ballast. When you add the force required to drag them (which should be relatively minimal if only the tips are dragging) then the height that dragging force is applied at becomes critical. If it's above the axle, it adds to the forces already trying to rotate the tractor upwards around the rear axle. If it's applied below the axle, it subtracts from the "flip" side of the equation.

I think the politically incorrect way is to say "You can't fix stupid " I'll add to that time-worn adage and say "You can't fix stupid, careless, or just don't give a ****". What we can fix is inexperience.

In my opinion, which is just that, you need to keep the log butt well clear of the ground, ideally "shielded" behind a commercial log winch or a frame like I use. That accomplishes two things. It can't hook into or under something as you're dragging it, and it reduces the amount of friction (and mud on the log!) between the log and the ground.
One thing we haven't touched on, is the possibility of a log being dragged full length along the ground and having it hook or "submarine" the front end under a root, etc. If you're choked a little further back than you should be, what can happen is that the back end will lift off the ground, pivot around the choker, and slam down on top of the tractor or whatever is pulling the log. The reason I mention it is that it's actually happened to me, I was lucky in that it missed me and the ATV I was using by about a foot. Only a 9 foot fence stake about 6 inches in diameter, but enough to drive my sorry a** firmly into the ground... It was after that I built the log arch to tow behind.

I will say that Island Tractor and Spyderlk are right in theory. You SHOULD lift from the 3 point, then pull from the drawbar. I honestly doubt that anyone does that, I know the pros don't. They understand the risks of how they work, and manage them.

I've attached a rough diagram (really rough ) of the way I would haul IF I was using tongs and had no way to shield the log butt. The chain going to the drawbar MUST keep the critical angle at 90 degrees or more, or you start to translate the pulling force into rotational pressure, which we all agree is a bad thing. Personally, I'd skip the tongs and use a chain choker. Attach an anchor shackle to the vertical choker once the butt was lifted then chain it to the drawbar. The downside is you're still dragging the log close to the ground. Not so good for larger trees.

My setup is a compromise, it does tend to lift the front of the tractor due to the fact that the top link is in tension. The butts are raised to reduce drag, and shielded from hooking. The operator needs to understand that the "drag" portion of the load adds to the rotational tendency induced by lifting from the 3ph.

One more thing, the closer the lift point is to the rear axle the less leverage the loads have on the front of the tractor due to the shorter moment arm. Using a quick hitch or boom pole that extends the load further from the back of the tractor, and NOT hauling from the drawbar (single point of attachment) is asking for trouble, again in my opinion.

OK, now we can close the thread...:laughing:

Sean

 

[Chilly807]

Any pics on how to actually hook the tongs to the draw bar?

The problem is having enough lift height, putting safety concerns aside for the moment. I've got a 3400 Kubota, and I don't have enough lift height to use tongs properly. They have to have the end of the log off the ground to work right. Everything you add to the length, like chain or a shackle adds to the problem. It's part of the reason I don't use them, and you're also fairly much limited to hauling one piece at a time. I usually haul out a full tree (bucked and limbed, of course) hung from 4 chokers. Normally all 4 hooks and chokers are in use, depending on how much it all weighs.

Sean

 

[beppington]

... new Corvette in 1996 ... the dang think shook so bad at 135 MPH it scared me

Quality was job 1 only at Ford