How do you hook your Log tongs to draw bar?

[arrow]

I understand your point but would also note that you and 20-20 are survivors of this practice. The guys who did not survive are not posting on TBN. The fact that some people go a lifetime smoking two packs of cigarettes a day does not mean that there is no serious risk to the practice.

As I've stated earlier, I used the word "dumb" to insure that it made an impression on a new tractor user or a first time log hauler that might otherwise blindly adopt the practice without considering the risks. It is the type of practice that will eventually disappear just as driving without seatbelts will disappear as the public gets over the natural reluctance to change old habits and considers the costs/benefits of a new safer practice. That doesn't mean everyone who still does it is dumb but perhaps I would consider that term, lightly, for someone just starting out who studies the options and risks and still decides to do it. Put it this way, your mother would definitely give you a dope slap if she knew you were doing something risky when there are reasonable safer alternatives.

Island, I have been in the woods most of my life. In my former profession, I saw dumb ways and smart ways to do the same thing. In this case "dumb" means putting your or someone else's life in a precarious instant. I have had several instances where I've been compromised by the unforeseen and thankfully, have never been bit by the complacency bug Roy mentioned. Variables are key here. I have skidded logs with full size skidders. The logs are off the ground several feet. The skidder does not flip on its back for several reasons but I have seen skidders topple when a hitch became too large. My tractor has 20 hp and weighs 3000 Ibs. It has a front end loader, rear tires are loaded and it is 4 wheel drive. The largest hitch does not go above 2000Lbs. The log is several inches form the ground. The log front tip does not catch on obstructions which in this case may be a safety factor. Do not forget that the drawbar pull does not necessarily guard a tractor from flipping. I actually saw a guy get killed on a Allis 45 when show boating attempting to pull 3 large logs attached to his draw bar. He popped the clutch and over he went. I am not going to say you are incorrect in your advice especially that very few people on this forum know just who they are communicating with. As a matter of fact, you are more correct than I under that consideration. But I will state that blanket statements should not be made without knowing the variables. I survive anything like this because I'm careful and there may be many more people on this forum who are just as careful and would have much success with this method as I or 20-20 have. My tractor is not powerful enough or does not weigh enough at the rear to plant the tires so hard as to have the tractor rotate around the axle. Your tractor on the other hand may get you into a hoot of trouble because of its own variables. As a matter of fact, I may jump on your tractor with a hitch just like I do my own and jump right off your tractor deeming that method too dicey. I have done this for 30 years not because I have simply been lucky as your wording intimates. If you want to phrase it that way, then I have survived my profession, marriage, 3 daughters (although that survival factor remains to be seen) or I am stilll alive in general because its the way I run my life. Variables are key here along with operator diligence. The guy pictured with his JD attaching his hook to his 3 point adapter may be just as safe as I am or he may not. Before coming down with a total condemnation, I would think some variables need to be considered. If we are to be educational in this forum, then all sides need to be looked at and people can then make up their own minds based on their own variables

 

[IslandTractor]

Arrow we are not that far off in our thoughts. I am just concerned that new people looking for advice on skidding logs might choose this relatively risky method without being experienced and aware of the hazards.

We take risks everytime we get out of bed in the morning but it is nice to eliminate serious ones if we can. Flipping a tractor, as we all know, can happen to very experienced operators so setting up a tow/pull/drag to minimize that risk just makes sense. Operating slowly in known turf etc is one way to do that but as one is still vulnerable to some of the uncontrollable issues I still think it is best for people with less experience to avoid these "high hitch" methods altogether. I guess for me the point is mostly that there are alternatives that just require a bit of forethought/planning so why not send the new guys in that direction to begin with.

 

[arrow]

I am glad to see your movement on this subject meaning that your last post would have made a good first post. A couple of years ago it was I bringing up the point of questioning how safe or unsafe a seat belt was on a smaller narrow tractors that was operating in certain terrain or conditions. I got kinda beat up on my assertions but will always remember that if I had my belt on the day my tractor found a low spot in the front while climbing a high spot in the rear backing up, I might not be here today as the tractor flipped hard on its side where I would have surely bashed my head against the rock it came to rest on. Instead I was thrown/jumped from the seat and landed on my feet. Made me question blanket assertions such as "always wear your seat belt". Under certain conditions, it may be more safe to lift a log with a 3 point than to drag it on the ground pulling it with the hitch bar depending on terrain and the tractor. The very thing that may cause a tip over may also be the thing that provides a safe turn and that is the extra weight provided by a lifted hitch. This weight helps with traction and stability which may be just the thing needed on a given situation. That is on one hand. On the other hand, as I was journeying from my bil's house in Kentucky last week, ( where I cut grass with his JD 5325 and was sure to be belted in on that baby) while driving through West Virginia and part of Maryland, I opined on how would I care to skid logs through these hills and decided I would not. Talk about some variables

 

[Famah]

Greetings Learned Forum:

My brief visit to the Forestry Forum was pretty grim.

How is this for a thread title: "Logging with farm tractor=bad"

Here are some posts:

"a tractor is for farming, unless it is equipped with the right protection. i did it for a while, but i think a skidder is a lot better"

"logging with a farm tractor is very dangerous just a good way to flip one over on your self."

So I am not thinking I will find a lot of helpful hints on how to skid with one of our contraptions, other than buying a really nice logging winch for several thousand dollars.

Using a friend's borrowed Kubota L3400, I bet I have skidded at least 40 good sized trees, using a choke chain and a hook on the draw bar. I had no idea I was taking my life in my hands to such an extent. I was just wondering if there was an easier/more efficient way.

Nick

 

[Bedlam]

I have skidded logs with no problem. I wonder if they arent being used for lumber why bother? Might as well throw a chain around the center and lift it up a bit and cut them to legnth right there and then transport in the bucket.If I pull trees it usually becasue I want the brush in another spot so I drag it close cut it and the push the brush away.

 

[arrow]

Greetings Learned Forum:

My brief visit to the Forestry Forum was pretty grim.

How is this for a thread title: "Logging with farm tractor=bad"

Here are some posts:

"a tractor is for farming, unless it is equipped with the right protection. i did it for a while, but i think a skidder is a lot better"

"logging with a farm tractor is very dangerous just a good way to flip one over on your self."

So I am not thinking I will find a lot of helpful hints on how to skid with one of our contraptions, other than buying a really nice logging winch for several thousand dollars.

Using a friend's borrowed Kubota L3400, I bet I have skidded at least 40 good sized trees, using a choke chain and a hook on the draw bar. I had no idea I was taking my life in my hands to such an extent. I was just wondering if there was an easier/more efficient way.

Nick

Skidding is a pretty efficient way for a homeownwer or for a logger for that matter. I do not know what the odds are in terms of skidding on a compact tractor or driving a car on the road as it relates to a safety factor. According to all the safety eddicts that have come down the pike over the years, everyone over the age of 65 should be dead as they should not have made it thru childhood what with no helmets while bike riding, playing with fireworks, **** my first football helmet had no face bar. Anything you learn from this forum must be under consideration as from whence it came. Some guys get puckered up if their front wheels lift 6 inches off the ground and then state to all that would hear that they will never do that again for whatever caused it. You've skidded 40 trees, how'd that go? I personally think there are many more things you can do than skidding with a compact tractor to take your life in your hands. Use your own experience and common sense and don't let anyone here rattle you too hard. Remember, there are many people here who have brought over stems in just this way for many, many years with nothing untoward happening other than the usual aggravations when doing this sort of stuff.

 

[IslandTractor]

Remember, there are many people here who have brought over stems in just this way for many, many years with nothing untoward happening other than the usual aggravations when doing this sort of stuff.

Yeah, but keep in mind the ones that did not survive that experience tend not to post on TBN anymore. The fact that someone on TBN claims that going over Niagra Falls in a barrel is easy and safe because they have done it and survived is not exactly good evidence that your odds are good for surviving the experience.

Yes we are all here today despite growing up without seatbelts but we also know that without modern safety devices that there would be about three times as many road fatalities as there are today (based on comparison to fatalities per mile in 1960). That is about 70,000 deaths per year prevented by safety devices.

When safer ways of doing a dangerous task are developed it just makes sense to carefully reconsider your usual practice. Not everyone needs a skidder or logging winch but there are also ways to adapt a tractor so that flip over risk is minimized.

 

[SPYDERLK]

To the OP:

I attach my tongs to the inner mount on my boom pole - about 3' or 4' aft of the 3 point hitch. This gives good reach and height if the log isn't too heavy. I then hitch a choke chain from the butt of the log to the drawbar so I am lifting with the hitch and pulling with the drawbar. Belt & suspenders - I know - but based on the physics, that's just the the way I roll.

-Jim

Greetings Learned Forum:

I have read this thread with great interest, because the majority of my tractor use for the next couple of summers will be skidding logs. For those of you who do this routinely, what are you opinions on the best log pulling set ups? Sure, a Farmi skidding winch would be great, but I don't have the $5K for one. Keeping it simple (hooks, chains, lets say under $300) what is the best combination of safety and effectiveness?
Nick

How long does someone have to do something with a particular method before it is deemed "suitable". So if 20-20 has logged with his 3 pt for 30 years and myself have logged this way going on 30 years without incident, I would rather look at it as a reasonable risk in line with playing baseball or hockey or whatever rather than terming it "dumb" . There are some people who regard such risk as "dumb" even with protective gear. Island makes a good point about individuals and the info going out . One's survivability depends on one's own survival instinct. Many, but of course not all, of the horror stories you read about happen to people with lower instincts while others are quite cagey, calculating and careful. There are people who I know that I would not suggest them driving at all and there are people I would suggest not picking up a chainsaw not because both things are inherently dangerous but being more concerned with the personality of the person involved with the risk. Knowing variables is key to lessening risks.There are other varibles to consider when logging with cuts. I'm in an area where it snows. All of my skidding is done in winter which reduces surface tension. If one is in an area of non snow, a good set up may be using the 3 pt with a small arch at the end of the log being skidded.
It is always wise to preface any advice because of not knowing the operator's characteristics, temperment, abilities and equipment. There are reasons my tractor has not come close to being in a dangerous situation when skidding just as there are reasons why Roger 4400 had a pucker moment. The "whys" of things go a long way to staying safe when being involved with risk no matter what the degree one wishes to partake in whether going 300 mph in AA/fuel vehicle or going lion hunting while naked armed only with a knife. The higher degree of risk, the more the whys become important until you reach a point of saying the most important why of all...."why am I doing this" That point varies for everyone.

There is doing risky things safely by being painfully careful. There are also ways to have your cake and eat it too by thinking thru the Physics and applying it to factor out the bad stuff.
larry

 

[20 20]

I'm still reading and still come up with the same answer in my head, everyone is making good points but I still say the most important is the operator him/herself. Experience and learning is all ANY of us can do, practice and share our ways. I have pulled thousands of logs with tractors over the years and I still learn something new every time I hook another. Of course I like to watch and figure what is what while things are happening. Some folks think all they need to do is hook up, drop it in a higher gear then needed, pop the clutch and they're off never to look back just listen to their Ipod. I've fallen thousands of trees over the years also but, would NEVER consider myself a professional tree faller nor would I ever consider ANY other person one, IMO there is no such thing. Every time something to do with logging comes up there are to many varibles to ever have one way written in stone, other then PAY ATTENTION !!!!

 

[20 20]

On another note about all of the safety functions on machines, I'm noticing people are becomming LESS responsible as operators. I'm noticing more folks off in laa laa land while operating machinery instead of watching listening feeling how everything is running. I never listen to a radio etc... while running my machinery not even while plowing snow. I'm not saying it's wrong but I do see some really dumb{ooops there is that word} mistakes happening. So my question is if folks are over confident because of safety swithes A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-L-M-N-O-P.......... then are they TRUELY operating the machine to the best of their ability? The presence of or lack of safety devices still does not help a bad operator.

 

[Varmintmist]

Greetings Learned Forum:

I have read this thread with great interest, because the majority of my tractor use for the next couple of summers will be skidding logs. For those of you who do this routinely, what are you opinions on the best log pulling set ups? Sure, a Farmi skidding winch would be great, but I don't have the $5K for one. Keeping it simple (hooks, chains, lets say under $300) what is the best combination of safety and effectiveness?

As always, your opinions are greatly appreciated.

Nick

Carry all on the 3pt, and cut it to firewood in the woods is the best way. Chainsaw chains last longer that way.

If I am skidding, I cut it to size and limb it, then I use a chain to the drawbar, not a 3pt drawbar, the frame drawbar and drag easy.

 

[20 20]

Yeah, but keep in mind the ones that did not survive that experience tend not to post on TBN anymore. .

I have to write this, do you or have you ever been around children? If so did you let them play with matches/fire when they were real young, probably not. Now when they get older and we're out camping we probably don't mind having _____ teenager build us a fire. Did the matches change,.,..,.NOPE, did fire become cold unless needed to heat or cook,.,.,.,.NOPE. What did happen,,.....they{children} learned and hopefully became respectable of matches/fire.

I learned logging from my father who believed 100% in learn it the hard way 1st then you get the goodies later. What that means is find out what things are about, example, I had to learn how to saw wood with a 2 man manual saw, before I could run the chainsaw. I had to learn to split wood with a splitting maul before running a splitter etc... If he would of had access to a team of horses or oxen I'd of been using them to skid before getting on a tractor Back then I thought he was just being cruel, little did I know what he was really teaching me, respect and responsibility which in turn = SAFETY.

 

[arrow]

would NEVER consider myself a professional tree faller nor would I ever consider ANY other person one, IMO there is no such thing. Every time something to do with logging comes up there are to many varibles to ever have one way written in stone, other then PAY ATTENTION !!!!

If someone is paying me to log with all the attended to related items, methods and various end products as it relates to loggiung and I have done it for 30 years then I certainly do consider it a profession and can consider myself a professional when it comes to this type of work. I worked hard day in and day out encountering all the dangers inherent to such a job learning, learning and learning somemore over that time period. Do I know everything about the profession ? absolutely not and I doubt anyone else does no matter what the line of work being done that one can be called a professional in. Not knowing everything in any line of work does not necessarily mitigate the individual from being a pro at it whether it is a doctor, lawyer, teacher, baker or candlestick maker.

 

[IslandTractor]

Experience is definitely an important factor in safety I must agree. However it is a human factor and people are somewhat inconsistent and prone to errors. I have a lifetime of experience walking but I trip once in a while. An experienced careful tractor operator can still screw up occasionally too.

The laws of physics on the other hand are pretty much immutable. Tractor designers have used those laws to provide a safe drawbar for pulling. Pulling with a drawbar pretty much eliminates flip overs due to simple laws of physics.

Why not just use the drawbar or at least advise others to do so. I may choose to speed in my car but I am not going to get on a forum and say that I've had a lifetime of driving at 85mph and therefore it is safe for anyone to do so so long as they are cautious. Regardless of my habits I know that 85 is inherently more dangerous than 65, period. I fully accept that experienced operators like 20-20 and arrow have used different methods for years without trouble but that still doesn't seem a good reason to do anything but acknowledge that pulling with an attachment point above the drawbar/rear axle is simply dangerous and should be discouraged. The practice should be avoided on pretty much the same grounds that driving without seatbelts should be discouraged. Some people with a lot of experience have gotten away with these relatively unsafe practices but as this is a forum responding to a question posted by a newbie it just seems wrong to me to do anything but discourage these high pull point practices.

 

[arrow]

Experience is definitely an important factor in safety I must agree. However it is a human factor and people are somewhat inconsistent and prone to errors. I have a lifetime of experience walking but I trip once in a while. An experienced careful tractor operator can still screw up occasionally too.

The laws of physics on the other hand are pretty much immutable. Tractor designers have used those laws to provide a safe drawbar for pulling. Pulling with a drawbar pretty much eliminates flip overs due to simple laws of physics.

Why not just use the drawbar or at least advise others to do so. I may choose to speed in my car but I am not going to get on a forum and say that I've had a lifetime of driving at 85mph and therefore it is safe for anyone to do so so long as they are cautious. Regardless of my habits I know that 85 is inherently more dangerous than 65, period. I fully accept that experienced operators like 20-20 and arrow have used different methods for years without trouble but that still doesn't seem a good reason to do anything but acknowledge that pulling with an attachment point above the drawbar/rear axle is simply dangerous and should be discouraged. The practice should be avoided on pretty much the same grounds that driving without seatbelts should be discouraged. Some people with a lot of experience have gotten away with these relatively unsafe practices but as this is a forum responding to a question posted by a newbie it just seems wrong to me to do anything but discourage these high pull point practices.

You speak in generalities which is fine if everyone lived within the same parameters. That is simply not the case and as a result, when you are attempting to give safety advice, it may be working against you in certain cases. The variables are the key. Let us assume one is using his c.u.t to pull logs in a ground obstructed area. A chain wrapped around a log that is being pulled by the hitch bar has more lee way to create a lateral roll. If the log rolls enough and the chain is now resting and being dragged at the bottom of the log and the log has encountered a ground obstruction which it is more prone to do which this type of connection, then you stand the same type of risk you are trying to avoid. The force is now tugging down on the tractor and a powerful enough tractor might just begin to rotate on its axle. Why has this been a perfectly safe method for others by lifting the with a 3 point? 1. the log or log tips are elevated and thus less prone to catch at a critical place which is just below the hitching point. 2. One is dragging the rear of the log and thus creating weight on back of the tractor creating traction and more importantly, stability. 3. 4 wheel drive mitigates the tractive force of rear wheel drive as the drive dynamics are being shared. In other words the drive of a rear wheel only coupled vehicle has more of a chance of turning the tractor on its own axle because it is its only drive force. 4. The weight of the logs are being distributed along the entire tractor chassis and with a front end loader, this distribution is more spaced out. A smaller cut is lower to the ground than on a larger tractor so yes there are tractors I would not take into the woods let alone attach something to either on the hitch bar or the draw bar so your advice is not necessarily making anyone more safe. I'd rather be saying look at your own variables such as tractor size and type, power, terrain how much weight are you attaching to the tractor. A tractor such as the one pictured earlier, will drag a 600 Lb log safely to kingdom come attached to the hitch adaptor. It may not do so with a 3000 Lb load. If I listened to the general advice of wearing a seatbelt at all times on a tractor, on my tractor I'd be dead now. My tractor is 4' wide. If it rolls over and you are pinned to the seat by the belt, your head goes beyond the fender and contacts the ground because the tractor is so narrow. Not so on a larger tractor so I'd wear my seatbelt. My assertion is don't be lulled into a safety complacency because someone or company states it so. They have to for litigation purposes. Use your own head. Look at your own situation and make a judgement based on your own variables. You can be perfectly safe logging with the 3 point or you may not. You can be perfectly safe logging with the hitch bar or you may not. It depends on the variables and particulars which I'd rather rely on more so than the generalities. Whether you are a newbie or a veteran, I'd always give that advice first because in the end, either hitching to the 3 point or the hitch bar can be dangerous or safe with the right set of variables.

 

[JohninCT]

Here's a video of some logging/skidding tools that might be of some interest.

YouTube - Norwood Industries SkidMate - Tree Felling Jack - Log Skidding Arch - MultiMate

 

[JohninCT]

Here's another vid of tractor skidding tool that uses tongs. Note the chains connected from the tongs to the drawbar. This setup is much like someone else mentioned how they hook up using tongs to lift and chains to pull.

YouTube - Small tractor log skidder.mpg

 

[Famah]

Dear John:

I am liking that Log Hog. It seems like it would raise the end of the log a tad higher than just a chain connected to a draw bar, but not nearly to the height of a boom, which implicates all kinds of balance and safety issues.

Here is what Forum member Brad Blazer had to say:

"A quick hitch makes a pretty good skidding attachment. I use a short chain and attach a set of tongs to the center hook."
3-Point Quick Hitch - 27-1/2" Clearance

It is much less expensive (about 1/3 the cost) than the Log Hog, and appears to be able to do the job nicely. PLUS it is not a dedicated logging tool, A quick hitch is something that will come in handy all the time.

As far as my needs and budget, considering safety and effectiveness, a quick hitch is the leading contender for pulling logs right now.

The only other thing I saw in the Norwood video that made me want was the winch. How nice it would be to be able to pull logs out of nasty spots, instead of having to back up right to where they are. But by the time you add a winch, aren't you effectively talking about a poor man's Farmi logging winch set up, but doing it piece by piece and not nearly as well? I guess I don't know enough about how logging winches are used with tractors, or even if they should be.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences using winches to pull logs with their tractors?

Nick

Here's a video of some logging/skidding tools that might be of some interest.

YouTube - Norwood Industries SkidMate - Tree Felling Jack - Log Skidding Arch - MultiMate

 

[JohninCT]

As far as my needs and budget, considering safety and effectiveness, a quick hitch is the leading contender for pulling logs right now.

I agree a quick hitch with the tongs hooked to the top hook is essentially the same thing as a Norwood Log Hog. This is the setup that beenthere uses and posted that launched this thread into a 5 page safety discussion. I don't want to rehash any previous points but I will simply point out that the manufacturer cautions on use of the Log Hog are front ballast, extreme caution/no use up hills. That said, I think that the Log Hog or quick hitch could be used safely to skid logs. In my option the addition of a chain from the log to a hook or clevis on the drawbar would help make it safer to pull logs. Regardless, you just need to go slow and be careful and evaluate every pull to reasonably determine the potential risks to life and limb

 

[arrow]

An L3400 is a great size tractor to take into the woods. Any tractor that is low slung making its center of gravity lower is a safer logging tractor. Some farm tractors sit real high so one can see better the work area. I would not take this type of tractor into N.E. woods at all. Notice how skidders are built. High placed axles causing mechanicals ( the heaviest part of a skidder) riding lower. Be reasonable with your hitch size, be aware of terrain and speed and you'll be just fine. Winches are wonderful things and come in handier than one realizes which is sort of like a front end loader. You think its for dirt and scooping but you find out it can be used for a million other things. If you have alot of woods work, you will not be sorry purchasing a winch. One of my favorite things to use with a winch is the drop and go. You reach a slippery area with your load. Lack of traction is causing you to go nowhere. You drop your load , let out some cable, get a better purchase with your machine, drag back your load and off you go.