How do you tell if it's a scam or not?

[dfkrug]

Let me just say that if you want to sell a car, truck, or tractor nationally
and you expect your buyer to bring more than $10K in cash, you are
drastically limiting your buyers. Conversely, if you are a buyer and
your seller will not take a verifiable cashier's check greater than $10K,
find a more cooperative seller. I won't buy from a seller requiring over
$10K in cash.

That said, I got a $27K bogus BofA cashier's check years ago for a
car I was selling for less than that amt. This was before that kind of
scam was well known. That scam works best where the check is
sent straight to your bank and a wire transfer refund is requested for
the "overage". I never had the original check in hand to verify. I lost
nothing because I waited for the check to fully clear (it did not). Afterwards
I got a photocopy of the check from my bank, I called BofA to see if the
acct was valid. It was not, and BofA could not have cared less.

These scams exist. But if you are so scared that you won't close a deal,
you lose, and the thieves win. Economic terrorism.

Does anyone have an example of a cashier's check fraud where:
> you are given a check, which looks good
> you call the BANK. (they don't call you)
> you get verification the acct exists and the balance covers the check
> and you are somehow screwed anyway?

 

[cp1969]

These sort of cashier's check scams have made AutoTrader about useless. A friend of mine has been trying for a year to sell a Lexus IS-300 and has not received one legitimate offer but has a drawer full of bogus cashier's checks, all for an amount more (usually $5k more) than the asking price. No law enforcement agency is the least bit interested in following up.

 

[Superduper]

Let me just say that if you want to sell a car, truck, or tractor nationally
and you expect your buyer to bring more than $10K in cash, you are
drastically limiting your buyers. Conversely, if you are a buyer and
your seller will not take a verifiable cashier's check greater than $10K,
find a more cooperative seller. I won't buy from a seller requiring over
$10K in cash.

That said, I got a $27K bogus BofA cashier's check years ago for a
car I was selling for less than that amt. This was before that kind of
scam was well known. That scam works best where the check is
sent straight to your bank and a wire transfer refund is requested for
the "overage". I never had the original check in hand to verify. I lost
nothing because I waited for the check to fully clear (it did not). Afterwards
I got a photocopy of the check from my bank, I called BofA to see if the
acct was valid. It was not, and BofA could not have cared less.

These scams exist. But if you are so scared that you won't close a deal,
you lose, and the thieves win. Economic terrorism.

Does anyone have an example of a cashier's check fraud where:
> you are given a check, which looks good
> you call the BANK. (they don't call you)
> you get verification the acct exists and the balance covers the check
> and you are somehow screwed anyway?

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You say you personally were involved in a situation where someone tried to pass off a bogus $27,000 cashier's check to you, and this does not deter you from doing such business in the future. You acknowledge that these scams do exist. But still, you believe that it is better to play the game rather than forfeit the game of economic terrorism where theives win by default? I guess you have more money to play with than me, and you can be my guest in accepting as many as you can. Personally, I don't believe there is a game of economic terrorism here. Rather, I believe there are theives out there trying to steal my hard earned money -- plain and simple. Perhaps there is some bigger conspiracy here, but frankly, I don't see it nor care, as long as I get to keep my money.

BTW, if a check is plain bogus, the steps previously listed goes a long way towards verifying it's authenticity. However, I can tell you that in our particular incident, we were told by the feds investigating the scam that the check scam was way more sophisticated than simply printing a check with non-existent numbers. I don't recall the specifics as it was 5 years ago and we would simply rather forget the whole thing. But they did use a combination of valid numbers and bogus routing information so that the check took a circuitous route that causes delays in getting it to post as fraudulent. The process you stated in calling the bank to get verification is merely a simple means of verifying that the actual account number is valid and that sufficient funds exists in the account at the time the call was made. They do not give you an authorization number guaranteeing that the check will be good (like a credit card authorization). Therefore, if and when they see the actual check, if they determine that something else is amiss and does not honor it, you lose and as you say, the bank does not care. The scheme that burned us was so successful that we later learned over $1M was bilked through similar MO's. It was very sophisticated and it is probable that someone in the banking business with inside knowledge of how the system works was involved. For me, I simply say give me cash or go with me to the bank where I can watch the teller draw the cashier's check. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[SpringHollow]

I have talked about how to make sure I can get payment with my bank and credit card service. For cashier's checks, personal checks, money orders, and credit cards, you are responsible for any losses due to fraud, etc. even if the bank confirms that the payment is good. This is true even if the check clears and it is later found to be forged. As others have said, I was told that the only way to be sure of payment is wire transfer because it is the sending bank's responsibility to verify funds and identity. Even then, they said in order to be 100.00% sure, one would need to wait 24 hrs after receipt of the wire transfer.

 

[rox]

Eddie, your story made me laugh, $25,000 falls of the conveyor belt... What a hoot.

Stumpfield- I also urge caution, however fi you know your banker or een your teller very well, they would make a phone call for you. i know if i asked my banker to do so, he would do it with no problem at all. Perhaps the buyer is on very very good terms with a particular teller, like he goes to the bank every day to mae a deposit for his business, and when getting the check he decides to ahve them call you as an extra bit of re-assurance. Just like MadReferee wrote, there are a lot of people who make daily bank deposits for their business and the tellers get to knwo them quite well. So getting a phone call in advance is not necessarily fishy in my mind.

However based on what everybody here wrote, I would deliver the tractor, go to his bank and get cash. Or else insist he brings cash, take it or leave it. OTOH, the bank wire does sound good, probably the best if the buyer is willing to do that.

 

[Jstpssng]

So how does one make a large purchase if they do not want to carry cash?

MarkV

The first thing I would do is contact my own banker for his/her advice.

The day in question has come and gone, anyone know what Mr Stumpfield decided?

 

[dfkrug]

The first thing I would do is contact my own banker for his/her advice.

The day in question has come and gone, anyone know what Mr Stumpfield decided?

Unfortunately, banks and CUs have CAUSED some of the problems with
the bogus cashier's check scams. They have often told their customers
that funds from a deposited check are available before the bogus check
has fully cleared. I imagine that they are doing that less now, but the
fact remains that the CUSTOMER must find out if the check is any good;
the bank does nothing but send it to the clearing house.

 

[thatguy]

I think the idea of having him wire transfer the money to you would be the easiest.. I would even eat the $15 wire charge, just so I was sure it was good..

Would it be possible for him to travel to you with the cashiers check, and then have him cash it at a local bank and give you the cash?? I dont know banking rules about cashing checks for non account holders..

good luck..

 

[dfkrug]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You say you personally were involved in a situation where someone tried to pass off a bogus $27,000 cashier's check to you, and this does not deter you from doing such business in the future. You acknowledge that these scams do exist. But still, you believe that it is better to play the game rather than forfeit the game of economic terrorism where theives win by default? I guess you have more money to play with than me, and you can be my guest in accepting as many as you can. Personally, I don't believe there is a game of economic terrorism here. Rather, I believe there are theives out there trying to steal my hard earned money -- plain and simple. Perhaps there is some bigger conspiracy here, but frankly, I don't see it nor care, as long as I get to keep my money.

BTW, if a check is plain bogus, the steps previously listed goes a long way towards verifying it's authenticity. However, I can tell you that in our particular incident, we were told by the feds investigating the scam that the check scam was way more sophisticated than simply printing a check with non-existent numbers. I don't recall the specifics as it was 5 years ago and we would simply rather forget the whole thing. But they did use a combination of valid numbers and bogus routing information so that the check took a circuitous route that causes delays in getting it to post as fraudulent. The process you stated in calling the bank to get verification is merely a simple means of verifying that the actual account number is valid and that sufficient funds exists in the account at the time the call was made. They do not give you an authorization number guaranteeing that the check will be good (like a credit card authorization). Therefore, if and when they see the actual check, if they determine that something else is amiss and does not honor it, you lose and as you say, the bank does not care. The scheme that burned us was so successful that we later learned over $1M was bilked through similar MO's. It was very sophisticated and it is probable that someone in the banking business with inside knowledge of how the system works was involved. For me, I simply say give me cash or go with me to the bank where I can watch the teller draw the cashier's check. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Yes, I choose to continue to participate in interstate commerce, despite
the existence of scammers. I don't consider it "playing". If scammers
have succeeded in scaring you and others away from accepting
ANY cashier's checks, then the thieves are not the only losers here.

My example of the attempted scam against me was only to illustrate that
due diligence will avoid being victimized.

Larry239 has been diligent and, thankfully, no bogus checks have gotten thru.
I am sure he has accepted many more than I have.

Both buyer and seller going to a bank together is impractical if buyer, seller,
and bank are not in the same town. Wiring funds in advance of taking
possession of goods is EXTREMELY risky for the buyer. Whatassurances
does the buyerhave that the goods even exist?

Don't be scared/be diligent!

 

[hazmat]

One word

escrow It's not just for houses anymore...

Your local bank should be able to help you set something up or there are some online players - be sure to verify their integrity.