How Far is Too Far??

[Soundguy]

I have also backed up hills in the very few that i have encountered here in florida ( drainage swales.. )

Soundguy

 

[IslandTractor]

I have also backed up hills in the very few that i have encountered here in florida ( drainage swales.. )

Soundguy

I think hills/slopes may be the one area that Soundguy may not have the most experience with. Not sure exactly what a drainage swale is but it doesn't sound like something created by glacial action or movement of tectonic plates. Where do drainage swales fit on the "pucker factor" scale?

 

[sandman2234]

Some of those swales can get your attention. There is a distribution center west of town and they mow the sides of the overpass with a Steiner with duals on both axles. I have watched it and it still slides a little. The operator said it beat having to do it by hand.
David from jax

 

[3RRL]

Speaking of drainage swales, I have little gullies that carry water in the rainy season. They are very little with hardly any bank on either side and not very deep. But I'll tell you what, when I'm mowing or working parallel to them, I really watch out. They may seem to be less than a foot deep, but if you get your tire in it, their is an overwhelming pucker factor feeling that you are going to tip over! Especially if the opposite tires go up on a small rock or mound. There is no margin of error where a meter will help at that time.

Point being that even a little "rut" like that can send you tipping over under the right conditions. They are the most benign looking but in reality can be the most dangerous since they are ignored or overlooked at times because they look so harmless. It's the ones you don't consider being dangerous that often are.

 

[Soundguy]

I think hills/slopes may be the one area that Soundguy may not have the most experience with. Not sure exactly what a drainage swale is but it doesn't sound like something created by glacial action or movement of tectonic plates. Where do drainage swales fit on the "pucker factor" scale?

As the last 2 posters mentioned... While florida is more or less a pancake... a drainage swale can be a stee slope.. especially if it is feeding a dra.. heck.. the DRA walls are darn steep to. i've seen some that the county mows with a bulldozer with a PTO beacuse they have lost 2 tractor in it.. One had a side arm mower, and the other was a low ground profile 7740 with duals.. both went down a side so much they had to be pulle dout with a crane..

Even the bulldozer has to crawl straight up and down..

A ztr won't touch it.. it would be "mr frog's wild ride" for a ztr it is so steep..


So yeah... drainage swales can be anything from a shallow area on a side of a road to feed a culvert.. to a 'cliff' dropoff.. But you are correct.. florida has very little 'rolling' or sloped land that wasn't made that way by a piece of yellow machinery with a blade on it at one time or another .. etc.. (wink)

Soundguy

 

[1bush2hog]

I go up steep hills backwards since usually there is something at the top or before the top that stops me from going all the way to the top of the hill (could be trees, property line, stone wall, whatever). Going frontwards there would be a tractor length uncut.

Maybe it's me, but the tractor feels more stable going backwards uphill too.

Same here - back up the hill and drive back down. There are places that I might be able to safely traverse, however, still makes me nervous even backing up which keeps me thinking about safety - and those that depend on my safety.

 

[MarkV]

I do a lot of shredder work when I am putting in overtime in a different department where I work. About 60 hours worth in the past 30 days. A lot of it is on slopes and I am using a JD7800 or 7810 with dual rears and a 15ft batwing shredder. I've mowed slopes where I could barely stay on the seat and that the steering wheel was useless. You had to use the split brakes and ride the uphill side brakes to keep the tractor angled uphill enough to counter the slide downhill gravity was causing.

Most of the time when you see people mowing slopes sideways instead of up and down is because they are mowing on contour to reduce erosion. When you go straight up or down sometimes you make ruts that water will flow down in a rain and cause washes to form. This is how it was explained to me at work...and they always tell me that if I am uncomfortable on a slope or in a certain situation just to leave it be and they'll get someone with more experience to get that spot later.

Slopes are tricky things sometimes I feel safer on a steep slope with solid uniform ground then I do on a moderate slope with loose pitted ground with wash outs. If your gut says it isn't safe, don't do it. No job whether it be for money or around the house that is so important it is worth risking your safety for

Like the rest of you I have seen some state mowers working slopes that just don't seem possible to me. That leads me to a question. How much does pulling a batwing mower add to the stability of a tractor on a slope? Can those guys traverse a steeper slop with a batwing mower than a conventional 6' rotary mower?

MarkV

 

[Soundguy]

I believe it would be more correct to say that using a tru drag mount mower ( not a semi-mount _ vs a 3pt removes the mower itself from the tip equation.. IE.. you don't hav ethe weight from the uphill side of the mower working on the tractor. Since many of the mounts/ hitches for the batwings have a decent drgree of flexibility.. I'm not sure they do much to 'couple' the tractor to the mower to prevent a roll.. though.. i guess they do 'some'.. just not enough to worry about. Still .. If I was mowing a 'questionable' slope.. i'd prefer it was a drag mower vs a 3pt.. which.. if it did get tippy.. IE a low side wheel went in a hole.. it wouldn't 'hike' that mower deck way high up in the air ont he high side.. which would be detrimental to the situation.

I mow virtually all flat land.. though have mowed a few drainage swales... for what i was doing.. both a fixed deck 10' and a batwiong felt fine.. then again.. the batwingfollows the contours WAY better than the fixed deck units.. etc.. so it is my preference in areas with anything but pancake land..

Soundguy

 

[Spiveyman]

I've been thinking this same thing. This weekend I took the family to the Cincinnati Zoo and along I-75 the mowing crews were doing some of the death-defying things already mentioned here. Then last night was trying to spread out some piles of dirt left over from cleaning out a pond. There were several times I would have registered on that pucker scale, especially being an inexperienced tractor guy.

So, how far is too far? As Soundguy mentioned it totally depends on your set up, but the math is the same whatever you drive. For me, I did some quick estimates on my 6610. My tires are about 60" in diameter and with rims I estimate weigh 1,200 lbs each. The body of the tractor should be in the 6,000 range I think with a rough guess at center of gravity (COG) of about 40". So figuring out the moment of each wheel and the body, that gives an overall center of gravity of about 37". My newly narrowed wheel base is 84." With that, in a static condition, you can figure out how far is too far: The red dots are the approx COG of each wheel and the body. The green dot is approx COG for the whole thing. The compliment of the angle made between your COG, the edge of the wheel and your centerline is how far too far is...



The answer for me should be 49°. However, two things come in to play.

First is traction. In order to maintain traction the force of friction between the tires and the ground would have to overcome the component of gravity that would act on the tractor normal to the surface of contact. I seriously doubt I'd have that much traction unless the ground was soft and the tires could dig in. So in this case, hard ground would be better because you'd want it to slip rather than tilt. Many of you have seen this actually happen, the "dirt track" method of mowing.

Second though is momentum, life on a tractor is not "static." This is the one that will reach up and bite you on the rump. When you are trucking along and hit a bump or a rut, the intertia of the tractor can easily cause it to flop over. Anything on the 3ph above the COG will only make this worse.

It's good to see for me how that math works out, but I want a huge safety factor to keep a quick dip from sending me over.

Play it safe.

 

[2manyrocks]

Terrain will fool you. One minute you think you're okay and the next thing you've got a problem because the terrain you can't see under all the grass puts your machine in some odd position you didn't anticipate. Whatever the calculations might be on a flat surface, I don't know how anyone could really calculate the maximum slope for the effects of momentum, changing terrain, and a bushhog hanging off the back of the tractor. Then add the possibility of an operator goof (turning too sharply, whatever....) in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I wonder if the maximum slope is covered in anybody's owner's manual, and if it is, I wonder what assumptions were made for the calculation. I bet most of the manuals only say "AVOID STEEP SLOPES" for liability reasons. Not a lot of help for someone trying to figure out how far is too far with a particular tractor, but then how is the engineer supposed to know what size and weight bushhog is going to be used, etc.

 

[Spiveyman]

...I don't know how anyone could really calculate the maximum slope for the effects of momentum, changing terrain, and a bushhog hanging off the back of the tractor....

Precisely my point there. Well said. My 49° calculation is only valid in a perfect world, but since we live in this one, you need some serious safety factors in there. I think the 15% grade is a reasonable limit for the average operator. Anything beyond that you'd better know your terrain pretty daggone well and be very good. My uncle mows the steepest hills you can imagine with a Ford 7740 and a huge batwing. Every now and then the thing lets go. He's told me about having to just ride it to the bottom several times. He always says as long as you have a place to land and you can keep your foot of the brake you'll be fine. He's mowed those fields since he was a kid and he still gets nervous every time he has to mow. That's what's kept him alive this long.

Respect it like it can kill you, and you'll likely live to tell about it. Don't and you won't.

 

[dberry]

Land that my truck goes over easily makes me nervous on the tractor based on all the tipped tractor stories I've read.

 

[Spiveyman]

Land that my truck goes over easily makes me nervous on the tractor based on all the tipped tractor stories I've read.

Yeah, no kidding. Too bad you can put a 3ph and a pto on a corvette. You'd never have to worry about turning that thing over. I got close last night. I was spreading out some dirt from where we cleaned out the pond. My left rear slid down into a hole and I was sitting at a very precarious angle. My left was just spinning, but luckily I have a lever to lock the differential and was able to back my way out of the hole. Should have gotten a picture of the tractor like that, but I was too anxious to just get it out of there.

 

[tony123]

I'm new here and to tractors. Here's a few photos of some of what I've got to mow. I do them straight up and down. What are some of your opinions?

 

[Spiveyman]

If it works and you feel safe, then I'd say you have a plan. Are you not satisfied with it?

You might want to check out a thread by dieselfuelonly, he has a rig that looks a lot like yours.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/106658-started-learn-use-my-tractor.html

Long lost brothers or something.

 

[RoyJackson]

I'm new here and to tractors. Here's a few photos of some of what I've got to mow. I do them straight up and down. What are some of your opinions?

Up and down looks like the safest way to go. Your slopes are pretty steep and just as important, they appear to have quite a few "bumps" on them (especially in the first picture).
It also appears you've got a nice turn around area, at least at the bottom (can't see the top).
This is definitely not an area to mow if that lawn is the least bit wet! You'll either have an exciting ride down or you'll tear the lawn up.

 

[Trac-Tech]

Just to add a little of my experience to this from over the years.
The first time I had anything to do with this was complaints from operators of Massey Ferguson 8100 series tractors, we were dealing with two models, 160hp & 200hp. The complaint was that the steering and hyd would stop on steep slopes and due to the hyd press loaded clutch, it would also loose drive.
I rigged up a device on the inside of the cabin window to measure the angle for & aft as well as another for side to side.
I then drove the tractor until it stopped on a steep slope, I then read the angles both ways to be 26 degrees, this was very steep and had me twitching I can tell you. I did not feel safe at all at this point and when i tried to walk up the hill I had jsut parked on, it was too steep to walk comfortably and I had to climb more than walk.
Other times I have had to check parking brakes and the OECD (I think) standard for tractors is 17 degrees (maybe someone can correct me) for and aft. This is steeper than it sounds.
On other occasions when we have needed to try to fix gearbox problems that only become evident on slopes, they have been around the 20 degrees and once again, this is a lot steeper than it sounds!!! So always be comfortable and if you are not, dont go there.
To help with stability, you can always adjsut your rear wheel track out. This does help, but be careful when adjustin the front as it only gives you a false sens of security. It does not make any difference having the fornt adjusted for stability.
I hope this is of help to every one.

 

[tony123]

Spiveyman, I have read that thread several times. Enjoyed it.

Roy, thanks for the tip. Wet=Bad Just at the top is my level driveway, so I do have good turnaround at top.
It is a little bumpy, but boxblade will help that.

 

[madpogue]

...be careful when adjustin the front as it only gives you a false sens of security. It does not make any difference having the fornt adjusted for stability.

Say what??!? If that were true, we'd still all be on tricycle / tripods. We set both the front and rear wheels out on our 790 just after we bought it, and yeah, the rears are the major players, but when you're tip-toeing into an area of increasing tilt, having the low-side front wheel set out several inches definitely improves your footing.

 

[RobJ]

You have to remember those road crews mow on these thngs all day evry day. They learn/know/understand the limits of what they can do. Plus the wheels are usually pretty far out.

I posted these pictures a while back, some said it was beyond their pucker factor. But after a couple weeks of mowing I don't give it a second thought. I just hold on and mow.

BTW, in the second pic you can see the first time I stuck my tractor. See the dirt in the road. I was going down the bank towards the road, the BB got hung up on the bank. 4wd ATV left the black marks. Had to get the truck, that's why the chain is on the brush guard.