How much do you care about pre emissions

[blehmann]

Having had real life experience with large truck emissions system failures that added six to ten thousands dollars per year to the repair cost of the trucks, not to mention the need for extra tractors to cover for the ones in the shop having the emissions system repaired, I am against buying the new stuff that comes with a system that will fail, and fail often. Don't start comparing the DEF type systems with catalytic convertor systems on automobiles. One has a track record of failing and one has a track record of being highly successful. Nope, go back to the drawing board and come up with an engine that is clean burning and fuel efficient. The reduction of combustion by-products can be accomplished easier if the engine consumes the fuel more effectively. Slapping filters on a dirty engine is not the correct approach.

 

[Hardon]

I really don’t care about pre-emissions at all.

 

[RolandW]

In all of my diesels, the exhaust comes out of the turbocharger, through the muffler, and into the air – the way God intended it.

 

[Fields_mj]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

Gas engines have had emissions for so long that the manufacturers have worked out the bugs. My Hondas and Toyota cars consistently make it past 300k miles for me without any significant engine issues.

It looks like Diesel trucks are just now getting to the point where they've worked out most of the issues with DEF. Not sure how long that's going to take to carry over to ag and industrial applications. Personally, I can't afford anything that has a diesel engine in it what was built within the past 10 years, so buying something post emissions simply isn't an option. I have a 2000 F350 that I will need to replace soon. I fully anticipate having to start with a frame and cab, and put in the engine and drivetrain that I want. It's not a cheap path, but its not nearly as expensive as the newer (and more reliable) platforms, and its serviceable with is important to me.

 

[gerryc01]

Don't matter one bit to me. Both my tractors, Kubota M9's are pre emissions and I bought them new and they ain't going anywhere anyhow, so I'll never own one anyway. Besides, I only have 4500 and 6500 hours on the machines so they are just broken in. Kubota's VTE engines will go at least 50K hours without any major repairs other than valve adjustments, oil and filter changes and air filters and.. Interestingly, they are worth as much as I paid for them in 2002 and 2001 respectively. Of course that is in today's inflated and basically worthless dollars. Not that I'd sell either. I fully expect them to outlast me and I'm 74 so my time here is somewhat limited.

One thing I did is, I made an agreement with my dealer that when I pass, he gets all the equipment and sells it all, keeps 10% and gives my wife or my estate, the proceeds. and I have a lot of stuff besides the 2 tractors and it's all in excellent condition, kept inside and cared for correctly. That don't include all the firearms or my well equipped machine and fabrication shop either. Told my wife when I pass, she will have to contract with a machinery liquidator to sell all the machine tools and welders and then there are the 3 Triumph and one Norton motorcycle I own as well. How about 2 Bridgeports, 2 surface grinders and 4 engine lathes one is a LeBlond Servo shift, the other 3 are South Bend, CNC plasma table, Tig welder with water cooled torch, 2 plasma cutters, 2 Hobart MIG machines, a Lincoln Ranger 8 engine drive welder, 2 roll around tool boxes stuffed with tools and enough tooling to run everything, all in a heated and air conditioned shop with an overhead crane.

I do have 2 full time employees as well. Been with me for years.

That don't include all the farm equipment or the farm itself and it's all paid for plus 3 rental properties, all rented with long term renters.

I ain't hurting... We still do what we want to, go out to eat a couple times a week and drive nice vehicles that are paid for as well.

Other than the cancer, life has been good to me. it will get me eventually I think but until then, I plan on enjoying myself, going hunting and generally raising hell. Got a New Mexico elk hunt booked for fall. Private land and guided. No tents, staying in a real guest house and meals prepared too. 3 of us are going plus I pulled a non resident Indiana deer tag and I will hunt on one of my hunting buds land. He owns 153 acres of semi wooded land near the Indy-Ohio border and lives on it as well. I'll probably do a late winter hunt on our land in the northern lower here in Michigan as well. Gotta keep the freezers full of meat though I do prefer Elk over deer. I still have some bear left from last year's bear hunt in New Brunswick. Frozen and hard as a brick. I'd like to do an African big game hunt so I can exercise my 338 Lapua. Problem is, the tariff's on bringing meat back, even a mount in Africa is prohibitively expensive. Maybe next year if I live long enough...

Maine moose hunt is on the bucket list as well. I have a very good and longtime friend who is a registered Maine guide and trapper. I need to live another 30 years to do it all. Problem is, I won't.

 

[Elviscaretaker]

Well my 2 cents.... DEF is crap and it ends up polluting more than if the system were not in place. One of the reasons it's not being required on the latest equipment. At 700 hours I'm on my 3rd repair to the def. $600 part but covered by warranty for now but the trip charge at $450 isn't. 2k to delete the system is well worth it. Back when car emissions systems were garbage I'd blow out the cats and they still passed the sniff tests done by the state. We can say all the same stuff about ethanol added to our gas, you burn more so whats the point again?

 

[NoTrespassing]

Gas engines have had emissions for so long that the manufacturers have worked out the bugs. My Hondas and Toyota cars consistently make it past 300k miles for me without any significant engine issues.

It looks like Diesel trucks are just now getting to the point where they've worked out most of the issues with DEF. Not sure how long that's going to take to carry over to ag and industrial applications. Personally, I can't afford anything that has a diesel engine in it what was built within the past 10 years, so buying something post emissions simply isn't an option. I have a 2000 F350 that I will need to replace soon. I fully anticipate having to start with a frame and cab, and put in the engine and drivetrain that I want. It's not a cheap path, but its not nearly as expensive as the newer (and more reliable) platforms, and its serviceable with is important to me.

The cats on my 2003 F150 are clogged up pretty bad at 150K miles right now.

 

[sequoyah101]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

This is why I drive old vehicles and do what it takes to keep them until I can't.

The emissions crap is just too complicated amounting to being over tuned. Most other bells and whistles are way over complicated. If you have wiring and microprocessors you will have problems.

The neighbor just spent $30,000 at JD to repair a tractor that was not repaired and then another $5,000 to finally fix it with a software change. I have a dozer I fear will become a yard ornament because the computer goes out. Most heavy equipment that is newer that sits not working is down because of some electronics mess. Cat boasts that their road grader with a wiring harness that is more than $30,000 looks like a high tech fighter cockpit. Is that a reason to make it complex and unreliable? Why does any tractor need relays? We got by just fine without them for ages. Why does any tractor need a programming routine to dim the dash lights; a rheostat used to work just fine and why do you really need to even dim the dash lights on a tractor in the first place?

My '19 CiH 50A has no less than 10 relays, why? I put a worklight on the back yesterday afternoon. Thought I had struck gold in finding a pigtail labeled "worklight". Problem is, it is on all the time. Why could someone not have wired it in with the front work lights? It would have been so easy. Now I have to get and wire in a switch.

If I needed another tractor I'd look long and hard to find a simple gem and pay market for it. There are 4020's and tractors of that series that will be running long after this modern fru-fru and complicated stuff is junked. I have a 50 year old JD 820 that looks like Maynard the tow truck but it runs when I need it. Dad did everything he could to destroy it and it still lives.

Complex and complicated is unreliable. Always.

 

[RolandW]

Well my 2 cents.... DEF is crap and it ends up polluting more than if the system were not in place. One of the reasons it's not being required on the latest equipment. At 700 hours I'm on my 3rd repair to the def. $600 part but covered by warranty for now but the trip charge at $450 isn't. 2k to delete the system is well worth it. Back when car emissions systems were garbage I'd blow out the cats and they still passed the sniff tests done by the state. We can say all the same stuff about ethanol added to our gas, you burn more so whats the point again?

Anything mandated by the government will be inferior to solutions that develop naturally on the market based on consumer preferences. People want clean air, and absent decrees by know-it-all politicians and bureaucrats, manufacturers would have responded to that preference. The difference is that a feature that made a certain model of car run like crap would have been rejected by consumers, and thus economic reality would have forced engineers back to the drawing board pronto to correct and refine it. No hiding behind "The government made us do it."

 

[JackDaniels1982]

IMO, Emissions are the cost of doing business. Can you do it cheaper - yes*, buy pre-emission equipment. We as a planet, country, province/state have agreed that certain emissions standards should be met. Actively seeking out and overusing outdated equipment is just a legal (but immoral?) loophole to that. Deleting emissions equipment because we don't like it is cheating the rest of us. Whether you get caught or not is not the question. We all have to sleep at night, and whether you do that with a $5000 luxury mattress paid for with pollution, or a second hand one and a clean conscience is for each of us to figure out ourselves.

*Can you actually do it cheaper? Generally we don't directly pay for environmental emissions, but if we did - I don't know. What the cost of a ton of CO, or NOx, or any other pollutants are worth plus the costs of trucking them to a repair shop. What is the cost of little Timmy getting sick, or not being able to play. I don't think you can do it cheaper, you are just "stealing" from the rest of us.

The vermiculite mine in Libby, Montana killed hundreds of people so their owners could make more money and this debate in a lot of ways is no different.

Also, just because someone else does something doesn't mean it's right for us to. ie a 3rd world country, still burning coal for power, and not caring about emissions on their tractors is different than what a lot of us face.

Having said all that I have an old pre-emissions tractor, for the same reason I drive an old chevy pickup. It's 70 HP, 4x4 and 3 years in, including purchasing it's cost me less than $5000 Canadian. It's what I can afford, and I do sleep well at night.

One other thought - in a lot of cases the equipment can run with a failed emissions system. They are de-rated, or otherwise "broke down" because if it wasn't programmed that way so many of us would continue running them (that doesn't apply to plugged cats/ particulate filters). They are there to "force" you to do the right thing.

Each of us contribute our tiny part to either the solution, or the problem.