How much do you care about pre emissions

[chim]

I've been noticing that all or nearly all of those "wouldn't dare" category have never actually owned a tier 4 machine. Looks like fear of the unknown, more than anything else.

Most who have actually owned Tier 4 machines seem to be in the "doesn't matter" or even preferred groups.

Not wanting a Tier 4 machine and not owning one makes sense. I didn't need to own a black car to know I didn't want one. No reason to buy one if the person didn't want one to start with. Plus it takes a while for people to forget the growing pains of the early Tier 4 tractors. There is even one Kubota model that was taken off the market. Look up B3350 problems. It is more of a lack of confidence than a fear. It seems that they are starting to get some credibility, but the Tier 4 tractors haven't been around for a period sufficient to prove themselves in the long term.

Many of the Tier 4 "doesn't matter" owners would fall into two categories: those who really haven't had any major problems so far and can work around the regens, and those who conceal their negative experiences so they don't feel bad about their decision.

 

[jrsavoie]

My only comment on that is... Tell that to China and India.as they don't give a hoot about clean air or water or anything else and what they spew into the atmosphere, we get to breathe eventually. Remember, we all live on the same planet.

Until every country on this orb gets with the program, it's all futile and why I don't get that concerned. Not just the airborne pollution, how about all the plastic waste in the ocean and elsewhere? I read there is a huge floating island of plastic waste floating in the ocean... How about that?

The water has a great amount of micro plastics. As well as about every living organism

 

[Reils49]

I was complaining about emissions all weekend looking at new wood stoves. The EPA has managed to screw up another industry. Give me a machine that runs, is easy to work on and doesn’t cost an arm & leg!

 

[jgmo]

Don't matter one bit to me. Both my tractors, Kubota M9's are pre emissions and I bought them new and they ain't going anywhere anyhow, so I'll never own one anyway. Besides, I only have 4500 and 6500 hours on the machines so they are just broken in. Kubota's VTE engines will go at least 50K hours without any major repairs other than valve adjustments, oil and filter changes and air filters and.. Interestingly, they are worth as much as I paid for them in 2002 and 2001 respectively. Of course that is in today's inflated and basically worthless dollars. Not that I'd sell either. I fully expect them to outlast me and I'm 74 so my time here is somewhat limited.

One thing I did is, I made an agreement with my dealer that when I pass, he gets all the equipment and sells it all, keeps 10% and gives my wife or my estate, the proceeds. and I have a lot of stuff besides the 2 tractors and it's all in excellent condition, kept inside and cared for correctly. That don't include all the firearms or my well equipped machine and fabrication shop either. Told my wife when I pass, she will have to contract with a machinery liquidator to sell all the machine tools and welders and then there are the 3 Triumph and one Norton motorcycle I own as well. How about 2 Bridgeports, 2 surface grinders and 4 engine lathes one is a LeBlond Servo shift, the other 3 are South Bend, CNC plasma table, Tig welder with water cooled torch, 2 plasma cutters, 2 Hob MIG machines, a Lincoln Ranger 8 engine drive welder, 2 roll around tool boxes stuffed with tools and enough tooling to run everything, all in a heated and air conditioned shop with an overhead crane.

I do have 2 full time employees as well. Been with me for years.

That don't include all the farm equipment or the farm itself and it's all paid for plus 3 rental properties, all rented with long term renters.

I ain't hurting... We still do what we want to, go out to eat a couple times a week and drive nice vehicles that are paid for as well.

Other than the cancer, life has been good to me. it will get me eventually I think but until then, I plan on enjoying myself, going hunting and generally raising hell. Got a New Mexico elk hunt booked for fall. Private land and guided. No tents, staying in a real guest house and meals prepared too. 3 of us are going plus I pulled a non resident Indiana deer tag and I will hunt on one of my hunting buds land. He owns 153 acres of semi wooded land near the Indy-Ohio border and lives on it as well. I'll probably do a late winter hunt on our land in the northern lower here in Michigan as well. Gotta keep the freezers full of meat though I do prefer Elk over deer. I still have some bear left from last year's bear hunt in New Brunswick. Frozen and hard as a brick. I'd like to do an African big game hunt so I can exercise my 338 Lapua. Problem is, the tariff's on bringing meat back, even a mount in Africa is prohibitively expensive. Maybe next year if I live long enough...

Maine moose hunt is on the bucket list as well. I have a very good and longtime friend who is a registered Maine guide and trapper. I need to live another 30 years to do it all. Problem is, I won't.

50/30.....Would you PLEASE adopt me?

 

[WinterDeere]

I was complaining about emissions all weekend looking at new wood stoves. The EPA has managed to screw up another industry. Give me a machine that runs, is easy to work on and doesn’t cost an arm & leg!

I've heated very large homes with wood for most of my 50 years, and you couldn't pay me enough to go back to the crappy stoves of the past. I've run them all, including pre-emissions (2nd worst), early catalytic (worst), non-cat (good), and modern cat (best). I'm presently running two modern catalytic stoves, at a rate of 6-10 cords per year.

I don't really care much about the emissions, but I do care about the efficiency. Modern catalytic stoves consistently hit LHV efficiencies in the 82-83% range, which cuts my wood usage down by a lot, compared to the old smoke dragons. Also, now I sweep my chimney only once per year, and get very little out of it after a full year, versus having to do it every 1-2 cords! It really sucked having to sweep my chimneys every month in winter.

I will admit the 2020 regs knocked quite a few stoves and makers off the market, but the best ones were already there, way before 2020. And just like the 1990's when the original reg's came out, it spurred a lot of the stove makers to spin out quick half-assed modifications of their designs that just didn't work (eg. Jotul Oslo 500) or VC 2-in-1. That's the fault of those makers, for being too late or slow to get their designs proven in, as many others already did without issues.

If you want advice on which stoves to consider or which to avoid, start a thread or PM me. Or better yet, see hearth.com, the tractorbynet of wood stoves.

 

[88bradb]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

I'm not saying emissions are a bad thing at all. But cathletic converters have been on cars for 50years. They got them working pretty well by now.
As far as the environment and global warming this is the way I see it. We Americans share the atmosphere and air we breath with the rest of the world (we are one of 195 countries on this earth). If we clean up this nation's air,it's only make a very,very mi-nute difference in the air we breath. So the way I see it,we are wasting our time.

 

[5030]

But you have NO choice. Government mandate and you comply or do without.

 

[OzarkChris]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

I have to agree with most of what you stated with this small caveat. Myself, I would also have to look at the cost of items like DEF (obviously, NOT on most SCUTS, but more frequently found on Utility class & higher). At this point, I would have to figure in the cost of DEF over the lifetime of the tractor as compared to the cost of pre DEF.

Just my nickles worth (inflation )

 

[Hay Dude]

I have a mix of several pre emissions and emissions diesels over the last 20 years. It’s not THAT big of a deal unless you buy a first generation DPF. They are getting long in the tooth and need a lot of work if left poorly maintained. My 2020 Ram has been pretty much flawless and I’m at 60,000 miles. Just keep it filled with DEF and it runs perfect.
I’d say avoid the early emissions Ford and International trucks more than anything. Anything from them 2008-2016 can be a huge problem. I owned 3 of them and none were deleted. Incredible PITA. IH trucks from that era actually lost the entire engine due to the emissions systems (Maxforce).
Also parking a DEF truck outside in a well below freezing climate can cause issues.
DEF fluid is pretty cheap. I’d rather have a DEF system than a DPF system.

It’s another layer of complexity, software & hardware to break, so naturally, reliability can be reduced a bit.

For large farm tractors, I prefer pre-emissions since they sit for periods in cold climates.

 

[WinterDeere]

But you have NO choice. Government mandate and you comply or do without.

Are we still on Reils' wood stove tangent, or tractors? For stoves, you can still by non-EPA approved stoves, they just have to be labeled as such. They all suck. Look at US Stove, for example. Garbage.