Buying Advice How to identify a vietnam refurb?

[had58854]

Is there a way to recognize a Vietnam refurb tractor if from a private party? I am considering a YM1610D for sale by an individual. The seller didn't recall where he bought the tractor from, but it was a dealer in Texas that shipped it to him in Kansas about 3 years ago. The seller seems honest, but I don't think he knows much about his tractor, (originally advertised it was ~10 or 12 years old.)

It seems in decent shape, and the price is reasonable, but I'm concerned that he has a "Vietnam refurb." Are the any dead give aways on the tractor that would indicate it came through Vietnam?

One bad sign is that he already had to spend some hudreds of dollars on the transmission within 3 years of purchase, and that was without knocking much paint off the loader.

 

[careyo63]

Doesn't really matter were it came from now. If it is a V-ref. any inferior parts that may have been used would have Show up YRS. ago most likely. But of course it's used and just may have some Owner/Operator error's but still it will probly last for yrs. with a little TLC. and correcting any problems you find. Any parts Parts for a 1610 should be easily available through Hoye Fredricks etc. IMHO all the yanmar's came from VN. Japan etc. and are easily repaired and maintained. I have delt with both US refurb and a VN'er cost wise and my time hands down I saved thousands on the AS IS VN.

 

[284 International]

One of the usual key signs is a Bulldog or VTEK brand loader, and perhaps some other ones too. Often everything under the hood has been painted: hoses, wires, etc.

Keep in mind there is nothing inherently wrong with a machine from Vietnam. The tractor doesn't know nor care the ethnicity of the mechanic, operator, and so forth. The trouble comes when parts have been replaced with non-matching components, and this occurs primarily in Vietnamese refurbishing yards, according to the collective knowledge here.

Spending "hundreds" on the transmission may or may not be a warning sign: at a shop rate of $80/hour (which is less than any place local to me!) 3 hours of work is $240. If the Powershift valve needed to be cleaned and serviced, it is not unreasonable to me that it could be a $400 job at a mechanic, especially after replacing fluids, filters, etc, even though it is a relatively minor problem.

If he did the himself and had to buy $800 worth of transmission parts, well...if the work was done well, it is now fixed!

I'm not trying to talk you into one. An unknown Vietnamese meddled-on machine is a risk, and have a much higher incidence of trouble, and worse problems when they occur, than non-"refurbished" machines. But my 1401D, which I think is a VN tractor, is the best, most reliable, and most trustworthy tractor I own. There have been far more owners who have had bad experiences than my superb one, though.

If the machine has had 7 years of use since the transmission woes, and is reliable now, I wouldn't worry over the intermediates it came through before you. If the current owner is honestly selling the albatross around his neck, that loses all appeal.

 

[clemsonfor]

Im thinking its a refurb as he thought (weather really or not) it was 12yrs old. Any seller selling american refurbs or out of the box yanmars would tell you that its a 1982 or what ever year range that it could be. There is no real way to pin a date down on these, just a range of dates. Like a ym200 is made i think like 1977-1979?

 

[zzvyb6]

Some things to check and some advice for other owners... See attached. This was published in Farmers Hotline, April issue, volume 38.

AND, the name and phone number of a person to call.

 

[clemsonfor]

Interesting article Z. It is usefull to some as to tell them about a "grey" But the author did not do all of his research. There ARE, roll over protection systems for Yanmars? Not for all greys but since they singled out Yanmar i wonder how they missed the Ones that were designed and tested and certified ROPS here in the USA. There is also a china made ROPS for yanmars that appears on all VN yanmars?

But another point is older american tractors, like way older have no over-running clutch. This can be purchased for old american tractors and Yanmars.

Also Most american tractors from the era as the early yanmars also did not have factor ROPS??

Good article just take it for what its worth. Like many things it written on a 6th grade level for the lay person. But it does its job by eductating that these were never US machines to begin with. BUT Yanmar did sell some of its tractors in the US. The only difference was an internal over-running clutch and reverse operating throttle to the Grey versions. Point here though is the US ones i think had a 2 speed PTO instead of 3 speed like the greys, but still a multiple speed PTO.

I wish articles llike this did ALL the reasearch. But if it keeps some away from them it keeps the price down as with demand for those of us who like them.

 

[kenmac]

most if not all VN tractors have had the HR meter rolled back. If it has low hrs. It's possibly a VN refurb

 

[California]

That is an incomplete copy of the document on Yanmar-America's website.

Gray Market Tractor Notice

Gray Market Tractor Notice

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE

GRAY MARKET TRACTORS,
 EXCAVATORS, WHEEL LOADERS and CARRIERS

What is a Gray Market Product? ....[continued] ...

The original document goes on to list the specific models that were authorized for sale in the US. (And are still supported today).

 

[California]

I found a couple of articles that show Yanmar's legal position re the Gray Market.

There was a lawsuit settled recently finding that Yanmar has no obligation to Gray Market owners. This case involved LCI and Lucky, who are (were?) major VN importers. Does anybody know if LCI is still around?

The Judicial View published a summary of the case.

(excerpt)

In 2003, some twenty-six years after it was manufactured, and without Yanmar Japan's knowledge, the tractor came into the possession of a Vietnamese company, Lucky Company, f/k/a Le Chau Company, Ltd.

The tractor was then imported to the United States on January 10, 2004, through the Gray market and sold to LCI Equipments, Inc., a Texas company. An Le, owner of LCI, regularly purchased tractors from Lucky Company. LCI, in turn, sold the tractor at an auction in Oklahoma to Chris Elder, owner of Chris Elder Enterprises, Inc. At the time he purchased the tractor, it was equipped with a front-end loader that had apparently been added to the tractor while in the possession of Lucky Company. Mr. Elder then equipped it with a bush hog, as the original rotary tiller had been removed at some point. According to Mr. Elder, the tractor looked brand new, as it had new paint, new rear tires, and the hours meter on the tractor was very low. Mr. Elder also stated that the tractor had been refurbished, all the stickers on it were new, and that it did not appear to be a thirty-year-old tractor. On October 4, 2004, just days after Mr. Elder sold the tractor to him, Mr. Slater was using the tractor to mow grass on a slope near a pond on his property when it rolled over, killing him. [more]

And LEAGLE published the full text of the Arkansas Supreme Court ruling in that case.

YANMAR CO., LTD. v. SLATER
2012 Ark. 36
Supreme Court of Arkansas.
Opinion Delivered February 2, 2012.

 

[284 International]

I hadn't read that legal decision. One of the moderators at a Kubota forum wrote an excellent series of articles about the grey market series tractors, particularly Kubota, but also Yanmar. You can find them here: ZEN-NOH and Kubota Part 1: A Partnership | OrangeTractorTalks

For me, I couldn't read all of the series and not think that a relatively small company had been treated unfairly and with bias compared to the larger corporations. Not to say there wasn't shady actions on the part of the importers, and two wrongs don't make a right, but the retroactive legal prohibitions against selling something that had been legally imported and was not an illegal product seems wrong in every sense.

I was glad to see, in the decision California linked, that Yanmar was not liable for the death of Mr. Slater.

 

[winston1]

LCI at Wills Point Texas has gone under, closed the doors.

 

[clemsonfor]

Was LCI just an importer or a Refurber as well? I heard one of the big ones went under i guess it was them? I think mine may be a LCI. They used bulldog loaders right? That was what the guy i bought from had on his tractors. I think the other one uses Vtek loaders and their stickers for model number have a black background. I also have LCI hoses on mine.

I can see they went under our economy went south and these were mostly cash purchases by the masses with money to spend to play.

 

[winston1]

I believe you are right. I think the Bulldog loaders were probably used on only LCI sold tractors.

 

[Car Doc]

Low hours like in the double digits and white wheels and V-Tech or Bulldog loaders is my "VN profile" But on the other hand that doesn't make them bad just an observation of mine.

A fluid and filter change alone could cost hundreds of dollars depending on where it was done and by whom just saying.

 

[California]

A fluid and filter change alone could cost hundreds of dollars depending on where it was done and by whom

At the other end of the scale - LCI averages two man-months of labor into each tractor: Lucky Co - About us

Company Data

Company Name


LUCKY Co., Ltd.

Director


VAN LE

Established


JUNE 2000

Address


No. 2 street, TAN DONG HIEP B Industrial Park, DI AN district, BINH DUONG province, VIET NAM

Main Business


Reconditioned Japanese tractors,Forklift, Excavator,Truck,Agricultural Equipment , Front End Loaders, Backhoes, Rotary Cutters, Box Blade , Granders , Posthole Diggers

Employees


300

Number of Car Sales


2,000 Units Per Year

Gross Sales


4.0 Million USD

Phone


(+84) 650 627 1203 / (+84) 650 627 1205

Facsimile


(+84) 650 627 1206

E-Mail


info@lciproduct.com; lcitractor@viettel.vn

Web Site


Lucky Co

... and averages $2,000 revenue per tractor. They must be buying their input *real* inexpensive.

 

[Car Doc]

At the other end of the scale - LCI averages two man-months of labor into each tractor:
... and averages $2,000 revenue per tractor. They must be buying their input *real* inexpensive.

Wow interesting reading thanks yup everything must be real cheap Id hate to work for them I am glad to be a capitalist pig.

I bookmarked their web site for future reference. Have you bought parts from them looks like its possible? I didn't add anything to a cart to see but just curious?

 

[clemsonfor]

i saw that too, but looks really hard and kind of cryptic. I was thinking that the prices did not look any better than Hoye either? I know Winston said he bought from the store (brick and motor) i think?

 

[winston1]

LCI is where I bought my tractor and have bought parts there and have had warranty work done there, blah, blah, blah. Last time I passed by there the doors were closed and the lot empty. I called the old gentleman I went through and he told me they had gone under. If you google there number you will find it is a non working number.

I am unsure of the Lucky Company. I know they are showing a foreign number.

 

[California]

I have a cousin presently traveling as a tourist in Vietnam. I asked him to keep an eye out for VN refurb shops. He sent me several photos but said the shops he saw serve the local market, not likely the export market.

In North Vietnam around Hanoi, there was little in the way of mechanization, at least in the areas we travelled. I didn't see any tractor rebuild shops, just the occasional welding outfit that fixed everything.

The economic engine in Vietnam is Saigon (locals don't use the name Ho Chi Minh City). Our tour schedule did not allow any spare time to lookup and seek out tractor refurbishing companies. However our trip to the Mekong Delta took us through Ben Luc, an industrial area southwest of Saigon. Here I spotted several tractor shops, so we stopped to investigate.

These outfits look like tractor graveyards that are piled high the tractor pieces, implements and attachments. These scrap piles are the inventory for replacement parts. The refurbished tractors are on display and consists of American, Japanese, and Chinese brands. I left out Italian although I did spot a Fiat 540 Special, but I don't think it was operational.

The refurbished items looked just like that, refurbished but not remanufactured. Parts had mismatched colors (some were crudely painted with a spray can), welds were very poor, some fasteners looked cross-threaded or loose, electrical wiring was scary, etc. This level of quality is typical in SEA, where most machinery is just barely operational, but somehow they keep them running. It appeared that these tractors were for locals, not for export.

Nobody at these shops spoke English and our guide said they were all "workers who didn't know anything", so we couldn't inquire about their operations or prices. I think the guide just wanted to get out of there - this stop was just too "far off the beaten track" for him. Of course these outfits are probably not [the ones who provide export tractors].

 

[clemsonfor]

Neat pics california. One of those pics the guy looks like, "what are you looking at". Love all the old tiny Jap tractors over there in that yard. Did not expect to see and old JD 10 series tractor or whateer model that was there. With so many good japanese brands there wonder why a JD even made it over there. There is what, at least 5 japanese brand tractors? Mitsu, yanmar, kubota, Iseki, Shirabu (or is that indian?)...