How to kill yourself without knowing

[texasjohn]

The OP said..be careful...I agree. The center of mass can be extremely dynamic, depending on FEL weight, rear counterbalance, moments resulting from height of both FEL and rear weight, angle of terrain, etc. Once that COM moves outside the tractor footprint, unhappy things happen very quickly unless a corrective action (drop FEL or rear weights, or both) is done extremely quickly.

If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the ranch, I agree such a completely unfamiliar experience would take me 5 seconds to recognize the situation, confirm real gorillas vs Big Foot/people in costumes, confirm personal attack intent vs run on by, grab my pocket carry which is always with me and chamber a shell. Now, I'm gonna need some extra time to decide whether to shoot thru the cab glass or open a door to shoot out...having an HST, it'll come to a stop rather quickly by just getting off the rocker.

Now, for the common, PREconsidered situation where I have about 1000 lbs counter weight added to my box blade and 2800 lbs lifted to about 1 foot height on FEL, I creep down/up hill with the HST and am tensed/poised to stop motion AND drop the FEL load...I'll bet I can do that right at the .4 sec mark. Did that just yesterday, in fact.

Stay safe out there:thumbsup:

 

[ragkar]

Your fast reaction at the stop light or the drag strip is a result of meeting a familiar yet unexpected situation. How long would it take you to react if an elephant suddenly appeared in front of your car. A bit longer I would think.
My tractor is a general purpose utility work horse. I don't want it hobbled by things that the factory designers don't want me to do. Sometimes I think it necessary to do things that are slightly unsafe.
Suppose they built in a tilt meter coupled to an engine kill switch. Then at times I might have a tilted tractor that wouldn't start! Two problems - no thanks.

 

[nebraskasparks]

I agree with texasjohn in that knowledge of a situation and having a plan should ANYTHING not go as planned will save a tense situation turning bad or even fatal. Keep your load low, angles minimized etc...training and knowledge do a lot to prevent fatalities and accidents. Very good discussion. If you're not on level dry ground you better have a plan and if your not sure...jump on TBN and ask the question. You will not find it in an owners manual.

Still looking for the best tractor safety program out there if anyone knows other than the circulars that are so very general in nature put out by various government agencies.

 

[LostInTheWoods]

If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the ranch, I agree such a completely unfamiliar experience would take me 5 seconds to recognize the situation, confirm real gorillas vs Big Foot/people in costumes, confirm personal attack intent vs run on by, grab my pocket carry which is always with me and chamber a shell. Now, I'm gonna need some extra time to decide whether to shoot thru the cab glass or open a door to shoot out...having an HST, it'll come to a stop rather quickly by just getting off the rocker.

If a group of wild mountain gorillas attacked me on the homestead, I'd **** myself, scream like a six-year-old girl, and run like track star. But to each his own.

I'd argue that after the initial shock, when you are confirming in your mind that they are real gorillas and you're reaching for your peacemaker that you've already initiated the "corrective measures" for that situation. But we could split hairs all day.

I think we would all agree ROPS and seatbelts are a good idea. And no matter how good we all think we are, you need to be on your toes when operating any type of equipment that could cause bodily harm. Especially if it's a machine you're not familiar with.

Looking again, I get the idea that nebraskasparks' main purpose behind the thread is to suggest tractor manufactures should incorporate some type of device(s) that would help prevent operators from exceeding safe limits on their machines. Ragkar makes a good point about kill switches potentially causing more trouble than they might prevent. Perhaps some audio/visual alarm would be better.

I have no idea what it would cost for something like that. But, as with most decisions, it would come down to cost vs. benefit. Where do you draw the line? If it cost $10 per tractor, then sure. But what if were $100/unit? $350/unit?

If its my life, well cost is no issue. But realistically, how many lives could it be expected to save if operators are already using seatbelts and ROPS? If it costs $100/tractor, and the expected benefit is to increase overall survival of accidents by less than a percentage point, is it a feasible trade-off?

You could make every home in America install an automatic sprinkler system. But if the homes already have well-maintained smoke alarms, and the family knows their escape plan, then how many lives would you save by adding that extra layer of protection? What's the cost/benefit analysis?

 

[rd_macgregor]

Maybe the OP, given his background in aviation, is thinking of something like stall warning alarms in planes. A visual and/or auditory warning for slope angle could be included in tractors, but it still wouldn't necessarily account for the other variables, like how rough the ground is, how high (or heavy) the FEL is or how fast you're going.
BOB

 

[dmccarty]

You could make every home in America install an automatic sprinkler system. But if the homes already have well-maintained smoke alarms, and the family knows their escape plan, then how many lives would you save by adding that extra layer of protection? What's the cost/benefit analysis?

And the building code in some states is now going to require sprinklers in new home construction.

Having a sprinkler in our dream house was a design point for many years. Then I called up the insurance company and asked how much money would I save if we installed a sprinkler system. It was not much, something like $50 a year. That told me that the odds of our house catching fire were pretty low.

I think reaction times on tractors are much shorter than on airplanes. These are two different reaction times are completely different equipment with tractors being really simple compared to an airplane.

I have been in numerous situations with the tractor that could cause a roll over. In fact every time I mow I have to be careful. When using the FEL I have had several incidents were the rear of the tractor became "light" and once the left rear wheel came off the ground. But all it takes to correct the FEL problems I have had is a push down. It only takes a fraction of a second to realize what is happening and react. Otherwise I would have rolled the tractor. And I have not rolled said tractor.

A five second time might be valid when one is surprised by an incident which requires thought to figure out WHAT has happened and then an action. The WHAT could take some time.

An experienced tractor operator should be able to know the WHAT is happening in a rollover in a fraction of a second. And they would know they were doing something that could change the center of gravity very quickly on the tractor and they would be ready to react.

Obviously there are incidents that are not humanly possible to react too. But an experience operator should not get into those circumstances in the first place. An example would be driving at a high speed with the FEL high in the air with a heavy load and then turning tightly. IF one did that and the tractor starts to roll even if the operator COULD react quickly it then becomes a question of the hydraulics would react quickly enough to stop the rollover. Certainly at a high enough speed you are going over regardless of human or hydraulic reaction time.

But I will guarantee most of us could utter an "Oh <adult word>" just as the roll over starts. It will be a very fast reaction.

We had a car accident about 18 months ago where we had the green light on a 55mph road. A lady turned into the intersection and hit us. She did not see us because a box truck was blocking her view so she decided to go anyway. I saw her car accelerate, the car's front end went up as she gunned the engine. I hit the brakes, anti lock brakes are wonderful, changed the line of travel slightly to change the point of impact, and waited for the crash.

My reaction to this was under a second. No If Ands Or Buts. Our car tires skid marks started just in front of the truck that was blocking the lady's view, continued to the point of impact where there was a direction change and the skid stopped when the car stopped. If I had spent 1 second reacting I don't think I would be making this post. I was able to slow down enough so she hit the left front quarter of our car. A fraction of a second later she would have impacted my car door.

Part of training in many disciplines is to develop muscle memory so you can react instantly without thought to a given situation. Those situations can be quite complex. An example being a law enforcement officer deciding that he/she has to shoot someone, draw a weapon, and do so. That can is a complex set of signals that have to be processed before a decision is made to react. But it better not take five seconds.

Flying an airplane and hearing a boom/bang, figuring out what went boom/bang and applying an action could take time. But that is an airplane not driving a tractor or a car. If the tractor starts to roll I am going to drop the FEL and 3ph NOW. I always have a hand sitting right next to if not on the FEL stick. If something goes boom/bang on my car I am hitting the brakes and pulling off the road. I don't need to think about it. :laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[Reg]

I think the current technology (available to other than NASA and advanced researchers) is limited to the current state of weight, angles, grade, implement height, etc.
Where it will become USEFUL is when it can "read ahead" far enough and process that data fast enough to prevent the upcoming edge, gopher hole, sink hole, soft spot, slope change, stump, etc. from becoming the final rollover factor.

Right now the "look ahead" has to be done by the tractor operator and of course all the data mentioned in the base post is useful as context.
The "easily affordable" stuff is probably a tilt gauge, but even that is best ignored in favor of looking at where you are going.
Height and weight of FEL load sensing is probably cheap, though may be more than many would want to spend by the time the real time computer is added in to make it a little bit useful.

For now I think we're limited to needing be a little more paranoid than necessary.
IOW - DO develop you sense of "pucker factor" and don't take chances.

 

[texasjohn]

Nebraskasparks, thanks for sharing the info about your pilot friend where 5 seconds was insufficient to analyze and react to resolve a fatal situation. Inexpressible loss for you and his family. His service to all of us in our defense is honored. Five seconds can be too short a time, case closed.

Reg, you make a good point. Thinking about it, when in a known possibly risky situation, I eye the ground ahead and drive accordingly. The real time computer you suggest must also include ground penetrating radar to predict firmness of material... a lump ahead could be friable soil which will shatter, or a rock which will cause a tip over.... as could moving from firm soil into a gooey seep where tires will sink.

 

[john4153]

Moving or changing the angle or slope of the ground just a few degrees off moves the moment arm away from the tractor a huge amount depending on the weight in your FEL or three point and that's where I saw the pearly gates for a millisecond operating an old ford.

I agree with the need to be constantly aware of safety. For most of us, that is obvious. Understanding the situation is critical to that goal.

I do not see the geometry of what you are talking about here. Can you make a sketch to show which moment arm you are referencing? What do you mean my "huge?" To a machinist, that might be 0.010 inches; to a carpenter it might be 10 feet.

John

 

[Brad_Blazer]

I agree with the OP. 5 seconds sounds right if you have to think about what to do. Best case we are a lot better than that but quite possibly still too slow to reverse the acceleration in the bad direction. Worst case we take the wrong action speed the event.

The computer part of automatic stability control could just about be handled by an Iphone app. Making all controls machine operable is somewhat more money. I'm guessing $1000 in high production. Many cars have similar systems but they don't have moving limbs. That said, this article predicts autonous cars by 2018:
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/08/02/2124104/driverless-cars-to-hit-the-streets.html
(That will signal a happy hour renaissance )
I'm thinking by 2050 it will be illegal to drive your own car any major road.

Stability control and autonomous operation of heavy machinery will lag the automotive industry but it's certainly coming. In some areas such as driving combines I think there is already an auto pilot available but that is not a very complicated task.

The F-4 - Very sorry about your buddy. I have a vivid memory of our first Tactical Air Controller training at ROMAD school. We had a Time On Target with an F-4 dropping Bomb Dummy Units. At the end of the bombing run the nose would come up, the engines would throttle up, and the plane would continue to sink in that attitude FOREVER! Or at least until it looked like he was tickling the treetops. Everyone on the Observation Point goes Whooaa! The pilot made every pass like that.

 

[nebraskasparks]

I will try and draw some sketches and scan them so I can show the diagram that I visualize later on.

For now...If you take a model tractor and take a dowel and run it through the center of its gravity/mass...that's what I'm visualizing with my tractor. Keeping that dowel perpendicular to level ground and changing the angle/slope that the tractor is on will give you so many degrees from level and you are then able to compute the height that the wheels and tires would be above level ground.
Tilting your model tractor sideways you can do the same thing. Models and sticks are still used in the fighter pilot community for briefing because visualization is the most successful training aid. It may sound stupid using a model tractor and a dowel rod...but if you were to show young people the affect of a load, front or back and how slope affects it...this would be a great training aid for farm safety. Turning the wheels up or down slope could also show various affects on stability.

Hanging the FEL or attachment on the three point obviously changes center of gravity/mass. Balancing something of similar weight on the opposite end is common sense which is usually forgotten when one gets in a hurry to get things done. I've looked at many of the fatal accidents online and you'll find an implement that wasn't completely attached on the other end or parked not far away that could have provided the balance needed to prevent the fatality.

The dynamic we change is the amount of force or load you pick up (large round bales etc) that you exert on either end and the angle the tractor is positioned in by the operator, slope, soil conditions potholes...you name it.

Parameters that would cause a definite tip which would be tractor angle, load elevation and weight etc...could easily be programmed to where the hydraulics could be deactivated and the intellipanel could leave a message such as Load Balance, tractor angle etc. Obviously the algorithm programmed by the engineers could not take into affect soil conditions that change over a few feet (dry to mud etc) but gps/ring laser gyros compute angles and height instantaneously today and if a tire were to sink and change the angle of the tractor this would be detected immediately. The prices on these devices have dropped like a lead suitcase in the last ten years and all this is feasible without interrupting a successful day in the field unless you were trying to put yourself in a casket.

I guess the reason that I am so emphatic on safety is that I've dealt with it all my life and was trained to investigate and look for solutions all these years. I've also buried a number of friends and acquaintances that were not as "lucky" as I was to survive and I've never forgotten the tears of children that no longer have a Dad. It sucks and I will always push engineers and companies to come up with a better product.

Truth in any field or occupation goes through three stages...first it's ridiculed, second stage is violent opposition...then it is eventually accepted as fact Increase in knowledge and technology means that we can do better things in the future.

 

[SpringHollow]

It would be very inexpensive to add angle kill switches - basically the same system that my automatic tilting seat has would work (mercury switches). For probably even less money, one could use the sensors in the iPhone/iTouch. But a simple kill switch would also be very dangerous. Warning beeps would as simple and inexpensive to have installed. Control (loader, steering) would not hard to do but would start to get pricey and would also be hard to make it safe for all situations.

ken

 

[/pine]

5 seconds reaction time is ludicrous...

if this were true the death rate on our roads and airways would be 50%-75% higher than it is...

still waiting for factual data sources to be posted by the OP...

 

[texasjohn]

/pine, Nebraskasparks posted his personal, professional expertise/experience and example where a friend had 5 seconds reaction time and it was insufficient ...the friend died. The OP may or may not have supporting data... nevertheless, Nebraskasparks has completely supported the number.

I now buy the 5 second reaction number as very realistic when in a complex situation and the unanticipated happens. For the drag strip example where the action is simple and the anticipated red/amber/green sequence happens, I also buy the .4 or .5 second action time.

Nebraskasparks, that's an excellent post regarding the image of a model tractor with dowel demonstrating center of mass and how it moves. For me, a surprising thing is when carrying a round bale of hay on FEL spear. Typically I carry one on rear fork, one on FEL spear. Occasionally some unique situation causes me to place the rear bale first and then drive around to place front bale...... if I get going kinda fast then whip the front wheels tightly to turn the tractor, a WOW moment happens as the rotational velocity and moments of force combine to cause attention getting tractor instability. I can feel that had I been going faster, or made a sharper turn I could have easily turned over.

Might be an opportunity for a computer game/simulation except that we'd need a tractor seat that tips, bounces, etc. to be sufficiently realistic:laughing:

 

[/pine]

Nebraskasparks has completely supported the number.

yes I agree for a convoluted, un-typical scenario...but not for a practical (applicable) algorithm...

 

[nebraskasparks]

In regard to the reaction times. You can use Google and when the menu comes up for selection at the right side is a category labeled "more". Under "more" you can select Scholar or Scholarly articles and you can investigate on your own all the various categories of cognitive/reaction response times to various issues. Even different cultural issues and upbringings bring about different responses in people. You will probably get your PHD in Cognitive studies when you're finished!

I can't quote paragraph and verse on the reaction time but the 5 second reaction time was beat home over and over for many years both in the military and civilian industries....unless thorough training was involved. That's why aviators had to memorize "Bold Face" or "Time Critical Actions" letter perfect and perform them letter perfect because the human being can react very fast indeed IF THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED according to the situation they find themselves in.

If we put the recent incident that was posted on TBN where the operator is put into an unfamiliar situation but was saved by the seatbelt...the action and reaction to this same event we vary greatly over a large population. If we were able to put a large "tractor" population into a simulator the results would surprise most of us. As Tom Hanks was quoted in the film for Apollo 13 when the sim session went bad..."If you gave me a nickel for every screw up in here I'd be a rich man....lets do it again till we get it right".


Despite all the great training we had in the USAF...we had a pilot that went out of control during a dogfight and ejected safely. He did the Time Critical Actions and they didn't work.
The accident investigators found the throttles in idle and everyone danced on this fellow like he was the village idiot of aviation. No where in the Time Critical instructions was there anything about checking power settings. This was "common sense" and the "idiot" should have known better. This gets better.

I was giving simulator sessions to fellow instructors (who had put the leper title on this aviator) and I put the simulator out of control and had the backseater move the throttles to idle without the pilot knowing and nearly every single pilot failed to advance the throttles. Every time the pilot picked up some airspeed to recover he stalled again because of the lack of power. I created a fire storm in that situation also...:laughing:

When things are not going your way and you don't know why they are not going your way....even 5 seconds seems like a quick reaction.

Having a plan because of good education and experience...like was mentioned where the operator holds his load low and has his hand ready to drop the FEL should "anything" out of the norm happen is a result of good training and experience which leads to short reaction times versus the 5 seconds.

All I'm trying to say is that the industry Tractor Operator Manuals are archaic because they don't even have a basic weight and balance charts and there is no excuse for this along with the fact that we have the technology that is cheap and cost affective to save a lot of people which turn out to be husbands, wives and kids that live next door or write for TBN.

When I find some decent diagrams showing moment arms etc that we can show in relation to moving a FEL etc...I'll pass them on. So far as reaction times...there are a multitude of factors that affect this for every human being.

Best Wishes
Greg

 

[/pine]

I can't quote paragraph and verse on the reaction time but the 5 second reaction time was beat home over and over for many years both in the military and civilian industries....

If this time of 5 seconds is as you say "beat home over and over for many years"
it should be quite easy to cite some bona fide sources...others have already posted sources that say it (reaction tme) is less than half of your claims...

 

[timswi]

If this time of 5 seconds is as you say "beat home over and over for many years"
it should be quite easy to cite some bona fide sources...others have already posted sources that say it (reaction tme) is less than half of your claims...

I'm really trying to figure out why this 5 second thing is so important to you...Explain please.

 

[/pine]

I'm really trying to figure out why this 5 second thing is so important to you...Explain please.

...it's not important to me I just deem it absurd...considering the fact that the OP has been unable to support it with anything other than his own supposition...and the fact that there has been supporting data (cited) that contradicts it...

 

[doall]

I think in certain situations 5 seconds might seem high. Like baseball( batter reacting to 95 mph fast ball.) yes he knows the ball is coming to him and he is ready. line drive to short stop. He's ready but he didn't know it was coming to him. Both are way less than 1 second. But where decisions that are not muscle memory and multiple steps need to be taken-maybe 5 seconds who knows. It's all relative to the situation. I think some are talking about apples and some oranges.