HST Transmission

art · Jan 8, 2004

Cowboydoc, I haven't found to many of your super farmers on Tractorbynet! So when in Rome let's talk Rome! I'm unaware of your runaway problem you talk about obviously your local dealer must have had some issues in his shop that should have been delt with. The main reason many of the Part time farmers in this area as you refer to them perfer the hydro transmissions for the safety of not having to change a gear or range to do a job on a side hill. There is no free wheel mode on a hydro. By the way I'd hope none of these dairy farmers working 100 plus hours a week all year long for the money they get paid here you say that as you'd have a contract out on you! The flexibility of the variable speed transmission types and the need for them was brought to the farming industry by Ford and the Select-o-speed and with IH and the hydro. The need in larger tractors used by farmers (your super farmers too) has been demonstrated and the manufacturers are responding with the variable speed transmissions we see coming out now. Yes, even the manufacturers are telling you that is the wave of the future for productivity. Did you have the big up-date to the 40 series rear done on your 4430 or didn't you buy it new?

cowboydoc · Jan 8, 2004

I'm quite sure if any of the dairy farmers were on here then they would know all about the failure of the International hydro. And the safety issue is also a well known fact. No way you can trust that hydro on a sidehill. It is not near what the hydros of today are. And just for the record I'm not talking about super farmers. I'm talking about guys that make a living farming. Yes this can be done if you're a small dairy operation on a couple hundred acres. Most farmers that make a living need a minimum of 2000 acres to make it. Those aren't my figures those are the figures of the US Ag. Dept. and Farm Bureau. The hydro your friend has may work jsut fine for him. I do know for a fact that you won't find 1% of real farmers that would take buy one even for little of no money. Heck just look at the resale value. A gear 1066 will bring 25-50% more than a hydro. And those are not my #'s. How do you explain that if they are so good like you say?

And Billy I should hope that your 4610 would pull that tiller without overheating. It only needs 30 hp to pull and you're over 10 hp what it was designed to be pulled with. I'm not saying that the hydro on these little tractors is bad. And some of the IVT's they're coming out with are pretty nice as well. BUT the IVT is not a hydro transmission either. I don't know of anyone that has a true hydro in anything but a compact tractor. How well they are going to hold up is another story. Let me know how yours is doing at 3000 hours. Hopefully it will be pretty good. I would be all for a hydro that held up to all the jobs we use tractors for. Right now though there isn't one that will do that and the ones that were made in the past failed miserably.

Old_Hickory · Jan 8, 2004

My hydro was hot one time and it was because the lever that operates the 4 in 1 loader was stuck and it was constantly trying to shut the bucket after it was already shut(overworking the hydraulics),and it was so hot that you could feel the heat on your legs and you could not hold your hand on the housing,it took me a little while to figure out it was stuck,that was hot and it has never been that hot before or since. Any other time it has never been that hot before,no matter what I was doing with the tractor.So I think I have been around the tractor long enough I could feel it/tell if it was hot as hot as your making it sound that one would get.
How are stopped when you are clawing?I was using the steering brakes to keep it going thus locking one wheel so the other one would bite in and keep going.

Old_Hickory · Jan 8, 2004

HST reaches but my feet sit right above it.

Billy you are right,if the hydro was very hot you would feel it under your feet and on your legs on the compacts.

cowboydoc · Jan 8, 2004

So now you're telling me that you know how hot your transmission temp. is just because of how hot the casing is? Well if you're hot enough to feel it through the casing you've already boiled your fluid and you better stop and have it changed. Once it's overheated the oil is junk. Anytime you get over 220 degrees it should be changed. And if you got that hot through the casing you were probably up around 300 degrees. I really don't think you're going to be able to tell 200 from 220 degrees. 200 is at the upper limit of safe at least in the bigger tractors. I would assume it's the same on the smaller tractors but not sure there. You get into 220 and you're in trouble. At 220 you aren't going to feel the casing getting hot. Many techs will recommend if you get even up to 220 you should change the oil.

popabear · Jan 8, 2004

Cowboydoc, if you look to the Cat. Case and John Deere sites I think you will see that all offer dozers with Hydrostatic Transmissions. These machines are made to work all day and work hard. I don't think you will see to many Dozers or for that matter much heavy construction equipment without a Hydro trans. I don't see what you feel is the problem with having a hydro in a CUT?

Old_Hickory · Jan 8, 2004

Now just HOW do you know the oil was not changed ???
Did I quote a specific temperature ? Did I say it was 220 or 300? I can feel something and tell if it was hot and not have to know the exact temperature to say it was hot or too hot.

Old_Hickory · Jan 8, 2004

The majority of dozers made sold today have hydro's in them and thats a fact.
Regardless of what anyone thinks hydro's are becoming more and more common (regardless of what some people think or want you to think). As time goes on the hydro's will be more common on larger tractors,technology and reliability will improve.

cowboydoc · Jan 8, 2004

If you read my post above popabear you will see that I addressed CAT's. The load for a CAT is usually not constant it is full load and then no load. That no load time lets the transmission cool. Also if you read all the posts I don't think a hydro in a CUT is a bad idea. For 90% of the people that buy one it will last a lifetime. The talk usually is that a hydro is better than a gear tractor. But I don't think a hydro in a cut is a bad idea by any means. If you are going to do any serious tillage work I sure wouldn't buy one. But that's my opinion on the CUT's. With regard to the hydro on the internationals that isn't my opinion that there is fact. And with regard to hydros that have been produced in the past they are not a viable alternative for field work. If you are using one to haul manure, move bales, general chore and loader work and even use on a chopper which goes extremely slow they will be fine until you get the bill to repair one. Bigger tractors are testing them right now. But the main problem is the heat factor and the amount of hp that it takes to run it. That's why you see the powershifts and the new IVT from John Deere. They are not a true hydro but they are close to it. And the cost as well. That hydro in the CAT's and such are pretty bulletproof. But they also are only for slow slow speeds and they cost as much as alot of new tractors just for the transmission. If you farmed would you spend an extra $30k just for a hydro transmission on a $50 or 60k tractor? And then to repair one is just ridiculous. On those 1066's Art is talking about very rarely does one get repaired. It is usually 2 to 3 times what the tractor is worth to repair one. And running it will rob about 30% of your hp. And those aren't my #'s those are the techs #'s.

5030 · Jan 8, 2004

Richard:

I have read this WHOLE thread and I have to butt in here, so to speak, and get my 2 cents in.

I am not going to take sides, or point fingers other to say that our tillage tractors are all gear drive.

Everyone here knows what I do with my 5030HSTC. Saying that, I use the tractor when the ambient temperature is high and the implements I pull are pretty power intensive as well as heavy.

I had a temperature issue with Kubota last year on the HST unit in the 5030, so I bought a Raytek infrared thermometer to "shoot" the transmission housing. I don't think that a "hand on the case" is a good indicator of transmission temperature.

The 5030 has the same size HST oil cooler as it's lesser powered siblings. I have always felt that tillage should be with a gear drive unit, with the hydro being a crossover between loader work and field work where you need to constantly change ground speed to control the task your doing more efficiently. I wold never consider moldboard plowing with the 5030.

Anyway, I felt that the 5030's transmission was running too hot when running the MoCo, especially on the hilly terrain that one of our fields has. Occasionally, I could actually get a whiff of hot oil, and I don't like that. I know what the result is from overheated transmission oil in a car transmission. It's not pretty. Besides, seal failure gets pretty high in temperatures over 250 degrees. I worked the tractor with the mower pretty hard and shot the casing at various times during the course of the day. My highest actual temperature was 222 degrees. I relayed this information to my dealer, and he told me that with Kubota UDT, the fluid didn't begin to oxidize and breakdown until the actual fluid temperature reached and sustained an ambient temperature of 230 degrees. As far as they (dealer) is concerned, the oil cooler is adequate for the unit, and I haven't caused any breakdown in the fluid. Only time will tell.