HVAC Decision Time

[Cityboyfarmer]

Bmac,

Installation is more important than brand. I personally know a large Trane dealer here whose installation techs do not pull a vacuum on the refrigerant lines and evaporator before start up. They use a technique called "blow & go". They simply blast refrigerant vapor through the evaporator coil to purge the air and then open the service valves and start the unit. The proper procedure as I was taught is to pull a triple vacuum with the final pulldown at 500 microns. Many installers do not even have a micron gage on their trucks these days. There are other installers of other brands who use the "blow & go" method as well, I only mention the Trane dealer to show that just because you purchase a big name unit does not automatically insure quality installation.

You need to be confident your contractor will be there in 1-5 years in the event you have a warranty issue. Mechanical equipment can and will break, and the more bells and whistles you have, the higher the likelyhood of problems. I personally like to keep it simple when it comes to residental HVAC equipment and see little value in spending mega-bucks on super high SEER, variable speed fans, multi-stage compressors, two stage gas valves & burners, etc. and electrostatic air filters. (Unless someone in your home has severe allergies requiring special air filtration). As I stated in a previous post, I am of the firm belief that the best money value is spent on a high quality air distrubution and return air ducting system.

Now if you truly desire the bells and whistles type system and believe the value is there, then that is what you should purchase.

I'm curious if you have looked at rhe Ruud/Rheem brands which are manufactured in Milledgeville, Ga.?

 

[thcri]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Murph,

The quote I referred to was for a 4 ton on the main floor and 3.5 ton for upstairs. Does the $4500 increase for the 14 SEER still seem unreasonably high? )</font>

Yes to me it does sound high. Now if he is going from a 12 SEER R22 to a 14 SEER Puron system it may not be so bad. PM me with the model numbers he is referring to and I will give you my costs difference between the 2.

And Cityboy's comment about different makes versus dealers is valid. Our service techs all have vacummn pumps and micron gauges. Pick one of the three big ones and make sure your dealer is great, just like buying a tractor, dealer has to be good.

murph

 

[bmac]

Cityboyfarmer,

I did not look at other brands. Took the advice of a cousin who owns a HVAC company in FL. He said if he were building a home, he would install American Standard / Trane.

I don't have the time or energy to research every brand of every component going into this house. Therefore, I am relying on advice from folks I believe are more knowledgable than myself to help in the decision-making process. I've already commited to the Trane equipment. Air handler in the attic was supposed to have been installed yesterday. I still have time to decide between dedicated heat/AC and dual fuel heat pump.

I believe you 100% that there are probably other brands that are equally capable and that probably cost less. And, as with most things, I also do not doubt that proper installation is the key to success. I have no idea about the particular installation technique my HVAC sub is using, however.

My home builder is actually a father-son team who are well-respected in the area. I know people who have had homes built by them and they are very pleased with the final product. One family is so pleased that they are going to have them build another home. The subs my builder uses, for the most part, have been with them for years. He stays with them because they tend to do a good job and he doesn't have to go back after closing and cover for their mistakes. The son of this father son team is building a home for himself now and is using the same subs and systems we are using on our home. In fact, when questions arise, we usually say "just do what you would do in your home". Are they perfect? Absolutely not. We have had a few issues come up. But for the most part, they have handled them to our satisfaction.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I am placing a lot of trust in my builder to use subcontractors that are going to do a good job. I am paying quite a premium for this level of trust. However, I also know that, with enough money, improvements could be made. For example, they are using the insulated flexible ductwork. I've seen shows on TV where each section of ductwork was custom fabricated from rigid material. My budget just won't allow me to be that particular. However, I do expect to be comfortable during all seasons and would like to do so in a reasonably energy-efficient manner. Like you, I don't see the financial benefit of going to the most energy efficient systems - the markup is just too great. I'm looking for something toward middle of the road in efficiency.

I do appreciate your feedback and recommendations. I am probably too far into this to take advantage of most of it.

 

[thcri]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Cityboyfarmer,

I did not look at other brands. )</font>


bmac,

The Trane product is one of the top three or four. Don't worry about it's realiability. In fact they are the only manufacturer left that builds it's own compressors. If you trust the dealer then your set.


murph

 

[Cityboyfarmer]

Bmac,

You will be fine with the Trane. Even if the sub falls off the planet, you can still get warranty service if needed, just as you can with any reputable manufacturer.

 

[bmac]

<font color="blue"> Our initial quote was for a 12 SEER AC. To bump this up to a 14 SEER is an additional $4600.00 (this is for 2 units - upstairs and main level) </font>

Well, there was a miscommunication between the HVAC subcontractor and myself re: prices. I know some thought something was askew with these so, now that I have them in writing, I thought I would post a correction.

The base price included a single speed blower. To go to a variable speed blower on each of the 2 units is an additional $2450. Then the upgrade to the 14 SEER AC is $2200 (again, for 2 units - one 4 ton, one 3.5 ton). If you add those 2 upgrades together, you get the $4600 that I had originally posted.

The upgrade from the 12 SEER AC to the 14 SEER dual fuel heat pump is $3400.

Murph, are these figures more in line with your prices?

 

[thcri]

BMAC,

Let me get this straight, 2400 to go to a variable speed blower on the furnaces or air handlers??

2200 to go from a 12 seer to a 14 seer may be in line if your going from a R22 system to a puron system.

Again, PM me your actual model models or email me your quote and I will give you my actual costs on these items. This way I can be more helpful.

murph

 

[Sigarms]

The contractor should of given you an estimate on 13 S.E.E.R equipment as well.

Some equipment lines, if not all, require variable speed to reach a 14 S.E.E.R rating (along with that good old TXV valve not installed that everyone LOVES /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif)

Not always the case with 13 S.E.E.R (needing a variable speed blower).

You guys remember the good old Carrier days when a variable speed motor ran $500? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And per thcri (what happened to "Murph"?), you need tm differentiate between a 410A sxstem and R-22 system. A 410A system will run you more money by far.

 

[atlr]

I am making a similar HVAC system decision. I just received a quote for Trane dual-fuel with a R410A based heat pump for installation near Norcross, GA.

Why would one choose an R410A refrigerant over R22?

One reason choosing a new R22 based system could cost more in the future for some reason you must replace the outside unit after year 2010, you will end up replacing the inside coil too. Is that even a valid scenario?

Otherwise, I don't understand why one would choose to pay the premium for a R410A system in 2005. I mean, I lean in a earth friendly green direction but currency green is of value to me as well.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[_RaT_]

<font color="blue"> As for the cost of propane, you mentioned the increase in NG. Here in PA, the propane is following the increases in NG, so no matter what gas you use, it is getting expensive.

paul
</font>

Not that this is the way it is back East or at least not yet, but out West we use hydro, nuclear, natural gas turbines, a few coal plants, solar/wind to generate power. An increase in NG is an automatic increase in electricity. Our electricity is not cheap, it is pretty much our last choice to heat with. Some folks go all electric and get a break from the utility company, something I have yet to understand as it seems those who choose gas pay to offset the smaller amount of those who choose all electric and since we are tied as to who transmits and distributes our power have little options.