HVAC question on used parts

[Richard]

Anyone willing to suggest brands without this turning into a competition?

I've got a friend (in another state) who works for Carrier Frig-sys or something goofy like that. He works for their commercial side that deals with trucks, busses, things on the move.

Anyways, he said that he's got a good friend on the residential side who is a vendor for Carrier... and they installed a Rheem in his (my friends) home.

This was suggesting to me that although he had the Carrier brand available to him, they felt the Rheem was better.

??

Also... for a system say, 3 1/2 4 tons of capacity (I think that's how they're measured?) any speculation on costs?

I know it depends, so let me put it differently... would a 3 1/2 ton system (compressor and handler ONLY, let's presume plumbing is ok for simplicity). Would a 3 1/2 ton system cost under $5K? $7.5K? $10K?

Not trying to pin anyone down...just trying to get a flavor of reality so I don't faint when I finally get to talking to them.

 

[MarkV]

Richard I am not in the business yet in a similar situation. I have been lead to believe that for a new high efficiently unit that is eligible for the tax rebate I should plan in the 7.5K range. If my/your duct work needs modifying the price would of course be higher.

MarkV

 

[kenmac]

I know Sigarms and Kenmac are HVAC pro's so am I correct that as of next year you can no longer buy new R22 systems, EPA thing? Also when switching freon types don't you also have to change the air handler unit to be compatible?

Richard there are some government rebates currently available, up to $1500, for new energy efficient units with the newer type of freon. If parts are unavailable for your unit now and it has been an on going problem is it worth putting more money in it and possibly missing the rebate program?

MarkV

Production of R22 is to end in 2010.. There is no telling how much is stored up in a wearhouse somewhere... You will still be able to purchase ( at some price ).. The newer refrigerant has nothing to do with the rebate... It must meet certain EER.. You have to replace the evap. Coil..Not air handler.. To meet the eer to get the rebate .. You will have to go with a variable speed air handler... You may spend $6000.00 - $7000.00 + + to get $1500.00 rebate...



Richard,,, Don't get so hung up on brands...you can buy a $10,000.00 system but, If the install isn't correct . You have wasted your $... Hire someone /company that has a good reputation... Also I haven't had any troubles with the systems that I have installed flushing the Refrigerant lines instead of replacing them

 

[MarkV]

Production of R22 is to end in 2010.. There is no telling how much is stored up in a wearhouse somewhere... You will still be able to purchase ( at some price ).. The newer refrigerant has nothing to do with the rebate... It must meet certain EER.. You have to replace the evap. Coil..Not air handler.. To meet the eer to get the rebate .. You will have to go with a variable speed air handler... You may spend $6000.00 - $7000.00 + + to get $1500.00 rebate...

Thanks Ken, great information. I thought it had to do with the freon rather than the EER.

I have two properties that are due for new units. In my MIL case she needs two new heat pumps and can fix her R22 systems for more or less half the price of converting to R410A. She will most likely be in the house for less than 5 years. Do you think it is worth the investment?

We are also in need for a complete new system in our house and are thinking high efficiently for our anticipated 15 years. Any thoughts on what to look for?

Thanks,
MarkV

 

[Sigarms]

I know Sigarms and Kenmac are HVAC pro's

Sincere thanks for the compliment, but I'm far from a pro. I've just been blessed with being able to work with people who are much smarter than myself.

By lineset, do you mean the copper tubing connecting the air handler to the compressor outside?

Yes.

I'm asking because the guy that was out on Friday said if the new stuff was put in, it was critical that it was VERY airtight (special tool to measure the vacume, compared to old system) and they would also purge/wash the connecting lines because if you mixed the two "freons" they would turn into some kind of GOO inside the line.

He was probably refering to a Vacuum gauge, which measures in microns. To pull a good vaccum in a system, you want to be at least under 500 microns. This can take time, which can cost a contractor money. One reason for a good vacuum is to pull moisture out of the lines.

Your statement above is suggestive of this same thing... one bad reality... my connecting lines run through flooring AND walls for a portion of their run and I don't know that it could be easily replaced without a major major issue inside.

I don't want to tell you this, but this is a worse case scenerio. However, as long as you don't have mulitple bends in the copper tubing with "weird" angles, a good "flush" in the lines should suffice. However, a good contractor will cover his butt and mention this in his proposal. This is one reason why pulling a good vacuum is VERY critical. Actually, a responsible contractor will pull mulitple vacuums.

Production of R22 is to end in 2010.. There is no telling how much is stored up in a wearhouse somewhere... You will still be able to purchase ( at some price )..

There is actually legislation that may halt all sales of R22 past 2010. It has many people worried for many reasons.

You will have to go with a variable speed air handler...

Actually, you don't. The X-13 motor actually out performs the ECM motor (variable speed) and will meet the tax rebate requirements with those manufacturers who use this motor in their air handlers, and actually uses less energy than the ECM motor. However, with the X-13 motor, you don't have the option of replacing only the module (as you do with the ECM motor), and years down the road, the X-13 probably will end up costing you more in replacement costs.

Richard,,, Don't get so hung up on brands...

I agree wholeheartedly.

Anyways, he said that he's got a good friend on the residential side who is a vendor for Carrier... and they installed a Rheem in his (my friends) home.

Look at manufacturers who are offering rebates along with equipment who meet the tax credit criteria. You may pay a little more, but it may be well worth it, particularly going with a two stage compressor for humidity control and comfort.



The above is what you should expect from any HVAC contractor. I was lucky enough that it was at my house at 11:30 PM

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Do a manual J calculation for sizing. The HVAC-CALC that someone referenced works good at a good price.

If you plan on being in the house awhile, consider geothermal. This will be the lowest cost to operate, but generally will cost more to install.

Before you begin, make sure you get a good opinion on the existing unit. I had a unit go "bad" on me once, two guys insisted the compressor was stuck and I needed to replace. The 3rd guy found a wire off, which was the problem. It ran fine until the day I moved...

 

[PAGUY]

Question concerning line set.

Does the distance from condenser to evaporator have an affect on the efficiency of a unit? What I mean is that if the line runs up the side of your house from the condenser and then thru an attic area to the evaporator a distance of say 60 to 70 ft. The reason for the distance was to put the condenser in the back of the house instead of the side of the house that the evaporator is located in the attic.

 

[Sigarms]

Do a manual J calculation for sizing.

Don't forget a manual D as well.

There is actually legislation that may halt all sales of R22 past 2010

I meant to say the sales of equipment bearing R22, not the refer itself.

Does the distance from condenser to evaporator have an affect on the efficiency of a unit?

More than just the effieciency. Biggest variable per this topic is verticle rise, then bends (90's) in the line. Most manufacturers have a set "charge" per length, and you have to adjust the "charge" (amount of refer. in the system) accordingly to the length. Some manufacturers even have in thier instal manual to call their tech department on extreme lengths.

 

[Richard]

I've got some new questions that are not related to salvaging the old parts, so I'm going to start an HVAC II thread...just wanted to say in case someone came here instead.

 

[Willl]

It's not the brand, it's the install.

 

[440roadrunner]

Question concerning line set.

Does the distance from condenser to evaporator have an affect on the efficiency of a unit? What I mean is that if the line runs up the side of your house from the condenser and then thru an attic area to the evaporator a distance of say 60 to 70 ft. The reason for the distance was to put the condenser in the back of the house instead of the side of the house that the evaporator is located in the attic.

YES. Proper insultation of linesets is VERY important, as is proper sizing. However, the manufacturer of the combo should have guidlines for the install


Remember, that in "heating" the "heat" is basically carried by the lineset itself!!! This means that poor/ rotten/ thin/ improperly installed insulation as well as oversized or undersized linesets will CERTAINLY affect efficiency. (If you ever mistakenly touch them in heating mode, you'll know why)

I used to work for a Lennox dealer. They USED to make great products, but they also make "low end" units to try to compete with low end people like, well, Rheam. The point? Make sure you don't get the "low end" of a high end brand. Lennox, for example, at the time I was "in" used copper coils and welded linesets, much, much more durable than the o-ringed, self piercing, "pre charged" lines many others used---the o rings deteriorate after a few years. I've lost count of the lineset fittings I've "welded around" on old green Rheams in this part of the country. THEY LEAK

Don't get too hung up on brands. You want someone who is COMPETENT at ductwork/ line sizing and proper installation AS WELL AS fireup and checkout AND SUPPORT maintenance. ****, in the medium sized town I worked in, I"ve had "Carrier" techs who "had to order" popular draft blowers in the middle of winter!!!! We used to carry that kind of thing for KNOWN popular brands/ models ON MY TRUCK. There were VERY few times that a "no heat" customer had to go overnight without some kind of heat from our outfit.

Geothermal: I'm generally against "opencircuit" systems unless you have GOBS of water "to burn." Seriously reconsider closed loop, ya, ya, I know, it's way more expensive.

INSIST from the installer that they provide a good quality unit WITH ADEQUATE system protection, including overtemp/ overpressure for the high side, and low temp/ low pressure cutouts on the low side. If you go "air" instead of geo, MAKE SURE the installer is willing to monitor and correct any frost/ icing/ cycling problems during warrantee, and INSIST that an air unit has "outdoor controls" (thermostats) to control when and if the heat pump switches to backup heat.

and once again, make SURE these guys do a heat calc and duct calc and get the unit properly sized AND properly sized to the ductwork.

 

[Richard]

Geothermal: I'm generally against "opencircuit" systems unless you have GOBS of water "to burn." Seriously reconsider closed loop, ya, ya, I know, it's way more expensive.

INSIST from the installer that they provide a good quality unit WITH ADEQUATE system protection, including overtemp/ overpressure for the high side, and low temp/ low pressure cutouts on the low side. If you go "air" instead of geo, MAKE SURE the installer is willing to monitor and correct any frost/ icing/ cycling problems during warrantee, and INSIST that an air unit has "outdoor controls" (thermostats) to control when and if the heat pump switches to backup heat.

and once again, make SURE these guys do a heat calc and duct calc and get the unit properly sized AND properly sized to the ductwork.

Thank you for your comments, as for water, I really do have a mother of wells. I'm also now talking to the wife about a closed circuit geo-system (in other thread HVAC II with land picture)

She mentioned we might be able to put it behind the house. Truth be told, I have no clue how large the underground part might need to be for a.. roughly 3,000/3,500 sq/ft house (garage is also heated)

Interestingly, the guy I talked to yesterday with the Amana system was the one bringing up an outdoor thermostat. Something at first, until he explained its use, I thought was kind of stupid... now I know who the stupid one is

 

[Sigarms]

I used to work for a Lennox dealer. They USED to make great products, but they also make "low end" units to try to compete with low end people like, well, Rheam.

First off, it's Rheem

I'm very familiar Lennox International, Lennox Industries, ADP, Heatcraft and a host of other companies under the Lennox "umbrella" and who makes what.

When I had my home inspection done when buying my home, the home inspector didn't know what to say when I asked if my two Lennox Pulse furnaces had a combustion check done, and why this test needed to be done

Carrier has Payne. American Standard has Ameristar and the count goes on.

Sorry, I wouldn't call people who sell junkatrol "low end people", and I wouldn't say that about those who sell Rheem/Ruud.

 

[kenmac]

Sorry, I wouldn't call people who sell junkatrol "low end people", and I wouldn't say that about those who sell Rheem/Ruud.

I guess I fall in there somewhere as I

 

[kenmac]

Sorry, I wouldn't call people who sell junkatrol "low end people", and I wouldn't say that about those who sell Rheem/Ruud.

I guess I fall in there somewhere. as, I have installed my share of both... There are good & bad in all brands... You could install the same brands on the same day at 2 different houses.. The compressor could go out on the 1 house & the other last for 20 yrs... You could buy 2 cars of the same brand on the same day .. Drive them the same way... 1 may have problems,, problems,, the other 1 never a problem... Just the way it happens sometimes


Joe, I'am glad you clarified your statement about the R22... I have been racking my pea brain looking for info. on this & came up with nothing

As far as 410 .. They say It contributes to global warming... What Refrigerant will we using next ??

 

[Sigarms]

I guess I fall in there somewhere. as, I have installed my share of both...

It's not the equipment, but the people. People don't buy from companies, they buy from people. If I'm dealing with someone who wants nothing but the lowest price for a service rendered that requires some skill and knowledge, I won't waste either of our time. Likewise when I'm the one doing the "shopping". God forbid if people are in business to make money.

1 may have problems,, problems,, the other 1 never a problem... Just the way it happens sometimes

Just take your time, make sure you use 15% silver solder, pull a good vacuum, use nitrogen, use good tools, and stand behind your work and everything will work out no matter what you install

That said, July 2009 consumer reports has Rheem/Ruud at number one in A/C reliability, and Goodman falls in next to last place behind Heil
(yes, I know who owns ICP).

 

[kenmac]

Don't know about other areas or cr ratings.. But,, durning the housing boom.. In my area Goodman has /had the largest share of the market. They are still strong in my area...All other manufactures have gone with TXV with the new 410 & the higher seer units... Goodman stayed with piston for metering the gas