hydraulic diagram & plumbing

   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #1  

Cord

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
1,720
Location
Richfield, Wi
Tractor
Resident Architect
First Question: Does anybody know where I can find the graphic spool diagram for a standard 4-way valve? I'm looking at a solenoid valve and I'm not certain that it's the correct function for what I want it to do.

Second question: Can two open center valves be installed in the same circuit? Do they need to be in series or can I installed a T in the supply line? The valves don't need to function at the same time.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #2  
1. Try the Prince Hydraulics site. They have some pretty good diagrams.

2. In theory you could have an infinite number of open center valves but they must be in SERIES. An open center valve is just as it's name implies. The inlet port is a direct path to the outlet port. Untill one of the spools diverts flow to a working port, the fluid flows through the valve body relatively unobstructed(all flow, no pressure) so there is no load on the engine powering the system. If you put two valves on a "T", as you try to get work out of one of the valves, nothing will happen as the fluid will just bypass the work through the open center of the other valve.

With 2 valves in series, there will be no alternate path so as you operate one of the spools, there will be no other path but to the cylinder/motor and pressure will build and work will be performed(and a load will be placed on the pump and engine). You will however only really be able to get any work out of one spool at a time. In a system with double acting cylinders or motors, the flow is never really interrupted. As you divert fluid from the inlet port to a cylinder or motor working port, the return from that cylinder or motor is sent to the valve outlet. This fluid heading down stream from the valve being operated could be diverted by another valve. But as the second cylinder or valve starts to perform work(fluid pressure builds), it will put backpressure on the return side of the first cylinder and hydraulically increase the weight it is moving. The first cylinder would move slower and in turn feed fluid from it's return slower causing the second cylinder to also slow down.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #3  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( You will however only really be able to get any work out of one spool at a time. In a system with double acting cylinders or motors, the flow is never really interrupted. As you divert fluid from the inlet port to a cylinder or motor working port, the return from that cylinder or motor is sent to the valve outlet. This fluid heading down stream from the valve being operated could be diverted by another valve. But as the second cylinder or valve starts to perform work(fluid pressure builds), it will put backpressure on the return side of the first cylinder and hydraulically increase the weight it is moving. The first cylinder would move slower and in turn feed fluid from it's return slower causing the second cylinder to also slow down. )</font>

Close, but not quite right. You missed the whole idea behind a power beyond valve setup.

Assuming 2 open center valves in series, the first one will almost always have power beyond. The fluid exhausting from the cylinder will go to the return to tank outlet not back into the main flow via the power beyond outlet. Depending on the valve design, unsued fluid by the activated spool will be available to other spools in that valve and what is still not used is dumped back into the main flow (at the power beyond outlet) to the next valve. Power beyond eliminates the problem of back pressure that you described as all exhaust fluid goes directly to the tank. Whatever flow that remains available continues on to the next valve in series.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#4  
Ok...a summary please. If I don't have powerbeyond on the up stream valve, do I connect the outlet of the up stream valve to the inlet of the down stream valve?
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #5  
You could but it is NOT recommended. The back pressure problems could lead to more serious hydraulic failures. From my perspective, and that of most hydraulic professionals, it would be "use at your own risk".

What is your application? An aux valve for a tractor TNT? Are you tapping off the loader valve (most loader valve's have power beyond).
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Well, I currently have a traditional two handle, two spool valve on my loader. The valve is a open center with out power beyond. The hole isn't even drilled (it's labled on the casting). I need to add a third spool for a grapple. Space is very tight, and I really don't have the room for a second valve. I found a solenoid valve on ebay that looks like it would work. The valve is a 4-way single spool, spring return, open center valve. I realize that buying a new valve would be the solution, but I don't have the several hundred it will cost me.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #7  
I think what you are looking for is a hydraulic double selector valve. This valve you need has 6 ports. You would connect the two central or common ports to the working ports off of one of your existing loader valve spools such as the one used to dump/rollback the bucket. Two of the remaining ports on the selector valve would connect to the dump/rollback cylinders. The two remaining ports would connect to the grappel cylinder. This is a two position valve. In one position, the fluid will flow to/from the loader valve working ports to the dump cylinders and control the bucket like it does now and the grappel cylinder will be hydraulically locked in place. When the valve is switched, the dump cylinder is hydraulically locked in place and the flow from the loader valve then controls the grappel cylinder. You can see a manual version of one of these valves at northern tool at the following link.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=20870&R=20870

I am looking into adding a grappel circuit also but think I will go with the three spool valve with float as my current 2 spool loader valve dosn't have float(I miss having float on the lift spool for gradeing). It will also be much simpler to install.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #8  
Here is a 12v version of the same thing. Several here on TBN have used this valve with much success. It's from Surplus Center and priced at a few cents under $200.

Double selector valve for grapple
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Thanks for the link. Most of the remote valves that I was finding were in the $400 range. I guess I was originally thinking that the grapple could be fed with a third spool, instead of splitting one of the existing spools. I could then T the line and have an accessory outlet on the tractor. Some day I'd like to build a lawn trailer with a hydraulic dump.

Here are the two valves I was looking at. I believe these would act as a standard 4-way valve:
ebay ebay

Is it just me or do all of these solenoid valves look like there are parts missing?
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #10  
Don't let the price fool you on those eBay valves. Those valves are designed for a D03 mounting plate which you must still purchase. They are not particularly suited for your application.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#11  
I was curious about that mounting plate. I take it that a DO3 plate is a classification and it provides a porting function? Neither of the sellers have bothered to reply to my questions, so they can pound sand for all I care.

Thanks for the help!
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #12  
D03 is an industrial standard for a subplate mounted valve.

In order to use a subplate mounted valve, you need to buy a subplate, which generally are not all that expensive.

Their claim to fame is that standard bar manifolds that hold anywhere from 1 to 10 sublate mounted valves are avaiable, some with auxilliary valves, like a relief valve included in the bar manifold. There are also "sandwich" valves avaiable that go between the subplate mounted valve and the subplate. All kinds of functions are available this way, counterbalance valves, flow controls, pressure controls, etc.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, they are not all that well suited for typical "mobile" applications.

The reason is, mobile open center valves typically have a parallel passage, which allows unused oil to go to tank. D03, D05 D08 etc industrial valves do not have this feature.

Since the way your current stack valve is plumbed, or not plumbed, as the case may be, with no access to the parallel passage (power beyond) you are kind of stuck.

As Mad mentioned, pressurizing the tank port is not a good way to go. Most valves are derated on the tank port, and you could be risking a failure. There are other potential problems as well.

You have two options, a 6 way selector as previously mentioned plumbed to the work ports of the existing valve, or you could plumb another 4 way three positon valve either in parallel with the existing valve, or in front of the existing valve.

If the new valve does not have a parallel passage, a two way valve in series with the existing valve would be required. this valve would need to be closed more or less simultaneously with activating functions on the added stack. Because of the "simulatneous" part, this pretty much means it will only work well with solenoid valves.

The way this is typically done is to use a double pole switch on the added functions, with the extra pole of each switch used to shift the four way, used to activate the 2-way, closing off tank flow through the original valve, forcing the oil through the new stack valve.

There are things to watch out for. Direct acting 4 way 3 pos solenoid valves typically can't handle all that much flow. Since reasonable wattage coils put out relatively low force compared to a human with a long handle, it doesn't take all that much flow before the sol valve gets stuck and won't shift. Also, you need to make sure there is a relief in the circuit when the two way is open or closed.

If the valve you add has a parallel passage, it could be plumbed "first" with power beyond from the new valve plumbed to the exisiting valve.

If it needs to be a solenoid activated valve, and you don't like the added two way and double pole switches, then there are at least a couple of manufactures of 4-way 3 pos. sol. valves with a parallel passage. Parker sells an old FPS direct acting 4 way 3-pos. solenoid valve that includes a parallel passage, but it craps out around 6 GPM, and is expensive.

Husco has a direct acting 5000 series section that has a parallel passage, can be banked with manual 5000 series sections, and can handle up to around 16 GPM, but it too, is expensive.

I'm not sure what Prince and the like have in solenoid valves with a parallel passage, but I'm sure a search could turn up something.
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #13  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I could then T the line and have an accessory outlet on the tractor. Some day I'd like to build a lawn trailer with a hydraulic dump.
)</font>

You can't Tee a line & use both sides - you would need to uncouple one device before coupling the other, so there is only one thing hooked up, and the other thing can't move. I'm sure that's what you meant, but just making sure.

--->Paul
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Based on your posts and my (obviously) limited knowledge of hydraulics, I'm thinking that a second single spool 4-way manual valve with a power beyond feature plumbed in up stream from my existing valve would be the way to go. Thoughts?
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing #15  
If all you need is manual valve, that would be the easiest cheapest way to go.

You will need a relief valve in the new valve, though too.

Do you know how much flow and pressure your tractor puts out?
 
   / hydraulic diagram & plumbing
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Well the tractor only puts out around 2gpm. I'm running an external pump that's rated at 13gpm, but that's at 3,000 rpm. It's a direct drive pump and my engine tops out at 2,600. Doesn't matter anyways as the existing valve is rated for 10gpm.
 

Marketplace Items

2352 (A60432)
2352 (A60432)
2018 CATERPILLAR D6N LGP HIGH TRACK CRAWLER DOZER (A60429)
2018 CATERPILLAR...
2017 Wacker Neuson LTV6 Towable Light Tower (A56857)
2017 Wacker Neuson...
(2) UNUSED 31" X 8 MM EXCAVATOR TRACKS W/ PINS (A60432)
(2) UNUSED 31" X 8...
RAKE ATTACHMENT FOR MINI EXCAVATOR (A58214)
RAKE ATTACHMENT...
2019 Ford F-150 4x4 Crew Cab Pickup Truck (A59230)
2019 Ford F-150...
 
Top