Hydraulic Steering Problem

MossRoad · Sep 19, 2005

Does anyone have any experience with IH hydraulic steering on late 70’s models or any other unit, for that matter?

Our late 70’s IH2500B has hydraulic steering: a ram with two hoses. The rod runs all the way through the cylinder’s case. One end of the rod has a mount that attaches to the frame and a fitting on the mount to feed fluid down the center of the rod. The other end of the rod just has a fitting for the other hydraulic hose. The center of the case is attached to the steering mechanism. So, there are no hydraulic fittings on the cylinder’s case, it is fed through both ends of the rods. Never seen one like this before. Anyway, here’s the problem…

I can hardly turn the steering wheel with the tractor running. Just a little bit in each direction. Even if I lift the front wheels off the ground with the FEL, I cannot turn the wheel. So, I removed the ram and dropped the hoses in a bucket. With the tractor running, I can then turn the steering wheel easily with one finger. As I turn the wheel, hydraulic fluid comes out of one hose. When I turn it the other way, fluid comes out of the other hose. This is expected. However, I was expecting the fluid to come out at great pressure. It does not. It comes out in good volume, but should it be under great pressure? Or, since the cylinder is removed, there is nothing to push against, so there will be no pressure at that point?

I’m going to have the cylinder tested at a local shop, just to make sure it is O.K. before I start tearing out the steering valve but wondered if anyone had any suggestions or similar problems. Thanks in advance.

slowrev · Sep 19, 2005

I am familiar with older hydriostatic steering systems from IH. Your steering pressure is quite a bit lower than you lift pressure. You either have a seperate steering pump or a priority flow divider.
This flow divider routes fluid to the steering system with it's own pressure relief valve. This valve could be stuck open.

First question does the engine have one or two pumps on it? Some were stacked piggyback.

Also with this type of steering you should be able to steer with difficulty with the engine not running. As the steering wheel shaft is connected to a "hand" pump, that should operate the cylinder.

Ben

MossRoad · Sep 19, 2005

I was looking at the hydraulic schematic and there is a flow divider. The steering pump gets 3GPM and some other pump gets 9 or 12 GPM. But I didn't read anything about pressure, just GPM.

I've just started degreasing and de-gunking everything. The unit is hydrostatic, so I believe all hydraulics are located internal, IE, no external steering pump. I followed the lines from the steering ram to the steering valve under the dash. I will now have to follow the lines from the steering valve and see where they go. I believe they go into the hydrostatic tranny. I'm at work, now, and will have to check tonight when I get home. Thanks for the feedback.

slowrev · Sep 19, 2005

What you are calling a steering valve might actually be a pump, as I said this enables hard steering with the engine not running.

On the ih Hydrostatic steering... It is the first thing to go out if you have fluid level problems or suction screen/filter problems.

Ben

Charolais · Sep 19, 2005

I had a 574 IH. with the same type cylinder. Had the end of the rod to break off. The steering was good up to that point. So I called and got a price on a new cylinder. Shazammmmm $825!!! Well I wasn't going to buy a new cylinder after all. Called Rice salvage yard up near Danville. He had one for $250 and had taken it to a IH dealer shop and had it repacked. I bought that one. Once I got it on,the steering was OK unless I had a load on the FEL. Couldn't turn the front wheels unless the tractor was moving. I always thought the cylinder was blowing by even though it had been repacked. I know the used cylinder had lots more hours on it than the one I had. The clevis holes was worn much more than the one I took off.

Never had seen a cylinder with the hollow rod before and hope I never have to deal with another. Mine was pretty hard to take off and put back on. It was a real tight fit.

I guess you have checked the front steering linkage with the tractor front up off the ground. With the cylinder disconnected you should be able to move the wheels front left to right by hand pretty easy. I have seen the steering arms get bound up with hard grease and cause the steering to be real hard to turn too.I helped a neighbor with a MF that was like that. He couldn't remember the last time he greased it. It sure locked up when it got dry too.

Hope you don't have to buy many new IH parts. Those 70's model parts are like buying gold. Darn good tractors but high priced parts made me trade.

MossRoad · Sep 20, 2005

Gee, Uh, thanks for the good news. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 I guess you have checked the front steering linkage with the tractor front up off the ground. With the cylinder disconnected you should be able to move the wheels front left to right by hand pretty easy. 

Oops. Guess I'll try that, just to be sure. Sometimes the obvious just doesn't hit me. That's why I ask for help. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'll let you know in a couple days... kid has sports after work and I'd rather watch her than that tractor. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy · Sep 20, 2005

( OK unless I had a load on the FEL. Couldn't turn the front wheels unless the tractor was moving. I always thought the cylinder was blowing by even though )

That's my first thought. I've seen a cyl have blowby.. then hyd lock and not steer..

Just a guess..

Soundguy

MossRoad · Sep 23, 2005

I found a rebuild kit for the cylinder for $42.00. It includes all the O rings, washers, wipers, etc... for the entire cylinder. Will pick it up tomorrow and hopefully start working on it Sunday.

I'm fortunate that I have all the parts manuals for this tractor, however, we have a pretty good IH place in a small town nearby, that has yet to fail me. Good folks. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MossRoad · Sep 26, 2005

I'm going to take this over to the IH forum since it is starting to get specific.

MossRoad · Sep 26, 2005

I couldn't get to the cylinder rebuild over the weekend, but I did manage to lift the front tires off the ground with the FEL and check that the steering was free. It is not. It seems that the right front tire cannot be turned left or right. I disconnected the steering linkage from the top of the spindle and there appears to be quit a bit of rust around there. I cannot get any grease to go into the zerk on the vertical spindle housing, either. The zerk appears to be the pressed in type, as there is no nut on the edges to put a wrench on it. So, how do you remove these types of zerks? I suspect I will have to remove the entire spindle/hub assembly and replace the bushings and bearing. Any hints?

slowrev · Sep 27, 2005

Probably some heating and beating, along with a hundred bucks or more of bearings and seals for reassembly. If it is a push in zerk then it is pried or pulled out.

Ben

MossRoad · Sep 27, 2005

I can't seem to grip it with anything to pull it out. I will try to get something under the edges to pry it out.

From the diagram, it looks like there is a top and bottom bushing and one bearing. Do those have to get pressed out? If so, I may just remove the whole assembly and take it in and have the work done at the IH shop. If I can't get it loosened up soon, I'll do that, as I want to sell it and have it out of the driveway before it snows.

Here's some pictures of the tractor just so you can get a general idea of what it is.

slowrev · Sep 27, 2005

I am not familiar with that machine. However I think it will take a press and some heating to get it apart. Based on my experience with frozen up spindles.
Good luck.

Ben

MossRoad · Nov 7, 2005

Well, I could not get the spindle out of the unit, so I had to pull the two bolts that hold the right, front axle assembly and remove the entire thing as a unit. Guess what? The two bolts that hold it in(the ones that allow you to adjust the tire spacing out or in) were frozen. Impact wrench would not get them off. Smoke wrench was able to burn through the nut enough on one to loosen it while the second one had to be cut off completely and beat out with a pin and sledge. They are not just nuts and bolts. They are similar to a wheel bolt and lug nut. I will have to special order the pins and nuts from an industrial dealer if they do not cross ref. to an ag unit. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Now for the good news... I took the entire assembly to an IH dealer. They had the two bushings, the bearing and a felt seal in stock. About $45.00 for parts. Then a big guy with a sledge hammer and a torch worked on it for about 1/2 hour and was not able to get the spindle out of the unit. I left it there for a week. When I picked it up, he told me he had to beat on it and heat it for about an hour solid, but he got it out and was able to get the new bushings and bearings in. $55 labor. So, it was about $101 total. Not bad.

Took it home, slipped it in, put in two grade 8 bolts temporarily to get the thing out of my driveway until I can get the real bolts.

Fired up the engine, used the FEL to lift it off the jack stands, removed the stands, lowered it down and heard a tremendous bang... front right tire and tube exploded! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ptrotter · Nov 26, 2005

Where did you find the rebuild kit for the steering cylinder? I haven't seen one listed on any of the online parts places. I have a 574 and the steering clyinder seems to leak slightly and I would like to rebuild it.

Thanks,

Psul

MossRoad · Nov 28, 2005

I found it at the IH dealership in a small town near here. I ended up not using it and still have it in the bag. The reason... I went to a salvage yard to buy a used tire for the tractor, and they made me an offer on the tractor! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

It is now an organ donor so that many other I.H. tractors can live on. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Do you want my steering cylinder rebuild kit? You may have it if it will do you any good.

ptrotter · Nov 28, 2005

MossRoad,

Thanks for the offer, however I just ordered on from the local dealer ($39) and it probably shipped already. Of course I will probably screw something up when I try to rebuild the cylinder, so I may drop you a line

This is my first tractor and I am just learning how to work on it.

Paul