Hydraulic Valve Options

[PaulT]

In the many various threads of TnT, there is much said about the valve selection. The consensus seems to be 3 spool and Prince has come up most often for the manually actuated valves. I went to Princes web site, and I am unsure of what options I would need to select to get the correct valve setup. For example, I think I need a 4 way, 3 position working body but what exactly does that refer to. Also, they come in spring return versions or detent versions. What is the difference? Should they be open center (that one I think I've learned is Yes) Should the valve be set up as serial or parallel? Should my 3rd valve have a float position as well? What size inlet section? Should it have a pressure relief valve? SHould it be adjustable? what range psi should it be preset to? What about the outlet section. Should I order it with a plastic plug, a power beyond port, no port?

Obviously a lot of questions. You know what that means - I am dumb as a stump regarding these features. Please help. If all of these questions have been answered already, it would be helpful if someone who knows them (maybe someone who recently configured one of these valves) could summarize the proper valve section choices and why. Also, if anyone knows of a specific thread that has a concise, effective explanation of basic hydraulics and hydraulics terminology, could you point me to it? Doing a search for "hydraulics" yields too many responses, and it would take hours to wade through all of the posts. Any help is appreciated.

PaulT

 

[hayden]

For the 2710 you need an open center system. You can set it up with or without power beyond, and there's some debate ove which to do. Bird doesn't have PB and has had no trouble. I set mine up with PB, mostly because I wasn't sure what else I was going to power other than the TnT and didn't want to add it in later.

As for valves, the 4 way refers to the number of in/outlets. There's always one for oil coming in and one for oil gogin out, so that accounts for two of them. The other two are the "working" ports and get hooked up to the two ends of the cylinder. Now we've accounted for all 4 ports. Depending on the control position, oil is forced out one port to move the cylinder, and the expelled oil from the other end goes back in to the valve. In the opposite position the oil just flows the other way and makes the cylinder move in the opposite direction.

The 3 position referes to what you can do with the control handle. 3 positions means center (do nothing), up, and down (or right and left depending on how you want to look at it) to control the two directions.

Spring centered means the lever will spring back to the center "off" position if you let go.

Detents means that the lever will stick in place when pushed to it'f full extreme and stall in the full-on position if you let go rather than springing back to the "off" position. Pulling back on the lever overcomes the detent and then it will spring back.

Float is typically a detent position beyond the full on position (in one of the two directions). In float the two ports for the cylinder are coupled together and free to drain. This allows the cylinder to move freely in response to externally applied forces. If you have a loader then you are familiar with the float position.

I used the prince sectional valves for my TnT. Thay can handle 12 GPM which is more than enough (2710 only produces 6-7 GPM), and they can be expended which I liked. To make up a sectional valve you need to get an inlet section, preferably one with a relief valve, and an outlet port. I got mine from NorthernTool and they sell two outlet sections, one with PB and one without. I think they are the same except for the plugs that you refered to. Then you buy whatever combination of actual valves you need.

Keep in mind that the sectional valves are big. Look at the pictures of mine in this forum (going down the TnT Path), then search around for the pictures of Birds which is a self-contained 2 spool control. His is much smaller and hence easier to place on your tractor. The 2710/2910 doesn't have too many location choices.

I hope this helps,

Peter

 

[jimgerken]

Wow, great info, I printed it out and will learn it. Now for another question along the same thread: I am about to purchase a Compact Tractor, and need to know how to add a third hydraulic valve and couplers (independent of the front double control normally conected to the loader), to control a rear implement function. This is for a John Deere 4100. The dealer tells me there is a kit to route the flow from the front couplers to the back, then the loader dual valve control works for the back couplers. But I don't want to disconnect the FEL in order to use the rear couplers, especially on days when I am loading gravel with the loader and hauling and dumping with a home-made hydraulic dump-box wagon. So, correct me where I go wrong here, I think I need to tap into Power Beyond on the existing dual valve body somewhere, and add another valve or two, and the corresponding ports on the rear of the tractor. Is this possible? How can I identify the power beyond ports on the existing system if it has them and the dealer can't help? Thanks a bunch, guys!

 

[bky]

yes thanks very informative seams you sumed it all up

 

[DFB]

Sure its possible./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif There is a spacer plate with two removable plugs located between the DSCV and the rockshaft housing. This is where the feed and return ports for rear aux hydraulics on a JD4100 would plumb to.

The parts catalog for a 4100 CUT identifies and locates all the components supplied in an optional factory kit. Might want to find out if you can get one as a factory installed option on a new tractor purchase.

Once you have the hyd outlets you can add your own control valve(s). Take a look at the attachment.
I put a Cross SSCV on the right fender. Small valve body (only 2"x5") 4"x8" overall. Ports are located inside the ROPS. Nothing sticks out to get snagged. Also kept everything intact, seatbelt clip got relocated to the valve body and the valve lever isn't in the way of the fender grab handle or the using the loader's DSCV either. A single spool control valve is all I figure I need right now. I can use it to power a hyd toplink, or a wagon dump cylinder, or to angle a blade or the chute on a rear mount snowblower.

The way this setup is I can also run something with its own control valve, bypassing my SCV. Like a log splitter if needed, but with a small GPM output of a 4100 the working speed would be somewhat slow.

Not much room on a 4100 to stack valves without hanging a mount off of the tractor and to still be able to reach it from the tractor seat too. Definitely a great project. There are alot of TBN members who have done accessory hydraulics.

I don't know what it is with these dealers either, when I first looked into this their response was to run long hoses from the loader valve too!/w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Good Luck

DFB

 

[jimgerken]

OK, I looked closely at the DSCV on the 4100 this afternoon. Are the two ports you talked about what I see as two pipe plugs screwed into fittings or threaded holes that stick straight DOWN from that plate between the DSCV and the trans housing (rockshaft? but I don't know what a rockshaft is)? I found those two plugs together on that plate, and there are other things but not in pairs as clearly, so I hope that's the oil supply and return. Can you say which is supply and which is return? It looks as if it would be easiest to come off these fittings with braided hose, not attempt hardline. There seems to be room for this operation, just barely. Thanks a bunch!!!!

 

[DFB]

Those are the ones. Looking at it from the rear of tractor the return line would attach to the one furthest away from you. The rockshaft is what the lift arms attach to. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif The rear transaxle housing is located just below it.

Space is tight for sure. There is a detachable panel located on the inner side of the right fender behind the wheel for easy access when removing the SCV. Layout possibilities are limited. The kit from Deere uses hoses. Check out the PM to see exactly what else is needed for a correct installation of the remote hydraulics.

DFB

 

[JATO_RaT]

Paul, I am in the process of adding a 3 or 4 spool valve to my tractor. While the Prince valves are pretty good, the cadillacs are Dinoil and then perhaps Gannon. The Dinoil are Italian made. The difference in the Gannon and the Prince are how heavy duty they are. Nothing wrong with Prince at all and in fact the few hydraulic cylinders I have of theirs are still working great. Rat...

 

[jimgerken]

OK, I did it. I plumbed in a new Prince LVR today, as was posted by DFB, to the two ports on that plate between the rockshaft housing and the DSCV. But it doesn't work. I double checked the supply and return correctness (I plumbed my valve's "in" side to the rear-most fitting, and my valve's "out" port to the tractor's front-most fitting), and I connected a hose and drained off a quart of oil thru the valve with the tractor running. Moving the valve results in some oil flow out of a hose connected with no coupler on one end, but no real pressure. And moving the valve to the position where there is notheing connected, does not make the tractor groan like the original equipment DSCV valve does when its not connected to anything (relief valve opening sound). I suspect airlock, but maybe there's something else wrong. Any ideas, and do I have to purge the air? Help...

 

[DFB]

Jim, you posted

<font color=blue>"I plumbed my valve's "in" side to the rear-most fitting, and my valve's "out" port to the tractor's front-most fitting"</font color=blue>

In my post I wrote:

"Looking at it from the rear of tractor the return line would attach to the one furthest away from you."

DFB

 

[Spencer]

DFB,
I am just wondering how many remotes you have there on the rear of your tractor? I just added 1 set of remotes to operate a hydraulic toplink. You seem to have quite a few more connections on the rear of your. Is that 2 complete sets of remotes, or more?

Spence

 

[DFB]

This is how its set up. In the pic <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/37-85452-scvrightside.jpg>scvrightside</A> the lower two outlets and the large looped hose is the JD factory aux hyd setup. Flow comes out of the upper outlet and returned thru the lower outlet. OUT/IN.

Now in that picture the fender mounted control valve remote circuit is isolated from the continuous flow at this point.
To get flow into SCV the hose that leads to scv (the one outside the ROP, connected upper right) is swapped with the main outflow return line. The upper right outlet then becomes the return from the SCV and the upper 2 outlets on the left are the remote outlets.

It could have been plumbed differently direct to the SCV with no quick connects, but lack of space, hose routing etc. made this setup more viable to me. Also the main outflow outlet can be used to feed another valve if need be.

DFB

 

[jimgerken]

DFB's post wrote:
>Jim, you posted
>"I plumbed my valve's "in" side to the rear-most fitting, and my valve's "out" port to the tractor's >front-most fitting"

> In my post I wrote:
> "Looking at it from the rear of tractor the return line would attach to the one furthest away from >you."

> DFB

Are we saying the same thing here? From your post I read that the supply port is the toward the rear of the tractor, and the return port is toward the front of the tractor. I plumbed the rear port (what I understand to be the supply port) to the port named "in" on my valve. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[DFB]

Jim here's scan of the aux kit from Deere. Shows the hose connections. There's also a plug installed. See # 19

DFB

 

[jimgerken]

DFB, is the plug to be INSTALLED or REMOVED to enable the power beyond operable? I am gathering that you bought this as a dealer-installed option, then added your valve to it.? I also have a call in to the local dealer, who is calling JD service, we'll get to the bottom of it, and I will follow up with what they say.

 

[DFB]

Jim, the JD kit included all the numbered componets in the scan. With the kit a new outlet plate comes with the plug installed and replaces the original one.

Now according to the parts manual the original plate that comes on the tractor and the one in the kit have the same part number # M808034.

The part number in the manual for just the plug is #PT13744.

Looks to me like it may possible to gain access to the plug cavity without removing the DSCV and plate by first removing the green plastic cover below the front of the seat and then the 2 pins and 3 bolts mounting the bracket for the joystick handle to the DSCV.

Jim I'll scan and post a followup picture of the control valve linkage.

DFB

 

[DFB]

Here's the scan.

DFB

 

[jimgerken]

DFB, Eureka!!! Thanks to your guidance and a little prying at the local dealer, I have power beyond. I called the dealer and explained the whole thing to one of the techs, and at first he kind of said he didn't know but later called back and agreed that it appeared that the plug (as DFB called out part number PT13744) was the key to making it work. He told me he could not "spec it out" to tell me what size it was, but then he said since it was only seventy-two cents, he went ahead and ordered it for me. He called the next day and had it.
As DFB suggested, I went in through the front, under the seat. I had to dismantle the DSCV lever assembly. After that, I removed a cap in the block and screwed in the plug. Replaced the cap and that was it. Reassembled everything and my system worked.
Here's an attachment showing my new Prince LVR and some of the plumbing.

 

[jimgerken]

Here's another view of the valve. My Thanks go out to Kevin and Kerry at Princedirect.com, for their technical help and fantastic price on the LVR. This valve worked out great in the small space I had, as it is all in-line, with joystick out the front, and all ports out the back.
If you're wondering, the "extra" hoses you may notice are feeding some tractor-front mounted couplers, "T"d to the back too. There's also an "extra" coupler on the oil return line (thats why you see five couplers) because Kevin told me I could operate single acting cylinders with this valve if I plumbed the unused side of the spool to the oil return line. So I will make up a jumper for this purpose. Cool, dump trailer here I come...

 

[jimgerken]

Here's the operator position, to show you how the joystick falls perfectly under your right hand. Even better than the stock DSCV, actually. The Prince LVR forms an armrest (needs padding yet), and the handle is right under your hand, if you are looking forward. If looking back, you slide your hand back on the handle a bit and its just great there too. The LVR is much more meterable than the stock DSCV, finer control is possible. Probably 'cause its a much bigger valve.
The bracket is custom-made, designed to raise the valve 2 inches for acces to the power beyond port on the bottom of it, for next years Caddigger.